posted 06-01-2008 11:42 AM            

I race J/30 class when I can (maybe once a year), and PHRF most of the time. So far, I haven't found that the class main has hurt us against other boats.

Two years ago we sailed the NOOD here in Chicago with a 14 boat PHRF section. J/30s were the slowest rated boat racing, including a brand new J/92S with a very good sailmaker. J/30s placed 1st and 2nd in section.

Last year we were again condemned to racing PHRF. This time the wind was light, and the 30s placed 7th and 8th. No difference in sail technology could have changed that outcome.

Our toughest competitor here is an S2 9.1. When we sail well, we beat them. When we don't, they beat us. Again, from what I can tell, a change to a high tech main wouldn't change that.

When I have priced new mains, the difference between a kevlar and a dacron main has been about 25%. For me that's significant (with a kid in college anyway)... and for no real difference in race results seems like the wrong place to spend my $.

Ullman sailmakers has done well in lots of different classes. In the Melges 24 class, they choose to construct dacron mains when they could use laminated sails. Technology is a good thing (I'm in computing), but just for the sake of technology seems to be unwise.

I do understand that having to buy 2 mains to be competitive is really expensive. I suggest however that the class main is perfectly fine, and perhaps more adjustable than a kevlar.

posted 06-01-2008 05:43 PM            

It is important to keep in mind that the J/30 Class Association does more than simply make rules for One Design sailing. They keep the J/30 relevant as a class by organizing the annual Nationals, hosting this website (which is a tremendous resource for anyone that has an interest in the boat), encouraging local fleet activities, and providing a means to establish the class rules.

Without a National Class Association, there wouldn't be any rules to protest. If everyone abstains from membership because of a rule they (perhaps legitimately) disagree with, then there won't be a class or rules with which to disagree. We all benefit from the class whether we go to the Nationals or not; without it, we'll all have just another 25+ year old boat.

posted 06-03-2008 12:37 PM            

Numerous other very large classes restrict to Dacron because of this very reason (J/24, J/105, Etchells, Sonars, etc.). It protects the class from technology out pacing the rules in an unfair way.

That being said I really do not have a problem with protecting the "spirit of the rule" and allowing other material as long as it protects from the "killer sail" showing up right before the North Americans.

It is a reality that most of us race PHRF and the occasional OD and if slight modifications to the rules increased OD participation then I think that is a postitive thing for the class.

posted 06-03-2008 01:47 PM         

High tech jibs are much more useful because headsails have fewer possible adjustments to shape than mains-a jib that holds a proper foil through a broad range of wind conditions is very important. The main has multiple adjustments to tweak the shape in conjunction with pressure, so having low stretch material is far less critical.

posted 06-22-2008 09:35 PM         

Also,
3 of the 4 acitve racing J-30's on Western Lake Erie all have non class mains. I don't know what is on the fourth

Just raced one of the other active J/30's in a 54 mile race. We beat him boat for boat by about 3 minues but he corrected over me (he carries a smaller head sail and rates 3 second higher).
Winds blew 15-20 all night, winds 25+ at the start, neither carried a number 1. Both boats had non class mains.
So much for one design.

If you want to attractthe active PHRF sailors to One design racing, I would suggest a change in the rule on the main.

posted 06-23-2008 04:49 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Steve Buzbee:
I'm with Russ. I'm a newcomer to the J/30 world and love the boat. I'll use it for family day sailing, Wednesday night club racing, and will (at first) bring up the rear in any OD events I can muster up a crew for. Most of my racing will be PHRF and it seems to me that the boat is hard to sail to its rating. Sure when Bengt gets into a groove with Fuzzy Wuzzy he'll win, but more often than not, the J/30s don't do so well in PHRF. If a better main could help nudge us up against the fleet - I say let's do it. Better PHRF results may attract more J/30s to the fleet, and maybe that would mean a OD class which seems to be what everyone wants...

I really think the dacron mainrestriction is fine. I race in a very competitive PHRF fleet of J-29's, S-2 9.1's, Olson 911 and 30, Santana 30/30 as well as a few other J-30's. Most of the other boats have high tech sails all around, and I see no noticeable performance difference between us on that basis. Age of sails and boat weight vis a vis conditions are the key points (along w/ boat handling and tactics of course).

High tech jibs are much more useful because headsails have fewer possible adjustments to shape than mains-a jib that holds a proper foil through a broad range of wind conditions is very important. The main has multiple adjustments to tweak the shape in conjunction with pressure, so having low stretch material is far less critical.

I would encourage you to update headsails before worrying about a high tech main. And I know that I will do whatever I have to to keep in one design configuration-nothing is better than sailing at J-30 OD events!

---

posted 06-24-2008 06:36 PM            

The idea that we can 'attract PHRF sailors to one design racing' is oxymoronic. Russ could comply with the one-design restrictions. He could work to develop a fleet in his area or travel to one-design events. But he has chosen to play a different game with its own set of rules, while appealing for us to change our rules for his benefit.

posted 06-26-2008 11:43 AM         

We are racing the boat PHRF and perfoming quite well and using that performance to encourge others to buy J/30's (looks like we might get one other J/30 at our club next year- dependent on the sale of his O'Day 34). Three boats isn't a fleet but it's a start.

And BTY, so I could keep the boat close to class configuration, a few years ago I appealed and won a rating change for J/30's on Lake Erie to reduce the penaly for the oversized chute since we already take a 3 second penalty for the pole (a class boat now carries 6 seconds of penalty). But to the point, during that appeal process, in 2004 there were only 12 J/30's listed with our PHRF organization (on all of Lake Erie). Those 12 boats are scattered over 300 miles, race in different areas and sail with significantly different agendas. Of those 12 boats, I have only actually seen 4 of them! And per the input from the folks at PHRF, most were modified in an attempt to reduce some or all of the 9 seconds of penalty the class boats carried. If you have constructive input or want to come out and help us to organize one design sailing on Lake Erie, please, we welcome your assistance.

And to your point of me racing one design, I would have to buy a trailer ($3500-$4000), pay $800 every time I want to haul the boat (in and out fee charged by my local marina) and tow the boat 250 miles to Chicago or 750 miles to Boston @ $4.00 per gallon and 7 miles per gallon for the truck. Would I do it? Probably; considering I spent just under $7k to truck my boat to Key West and back in 2006 only to break the boom after two days of racing.
I'd love to race one design. I'm sure I would learn to make the boat sail faster by watching,getting beat and learning from the experienced one design sailors.

But I won't do it with a Dacron Main!

I got one call from someone in Chicago several years ago asking me about the rule change on the head sail material. In that conversation I mentioned the issue of the main. I was asked if I would participate in Western Lake Michigan one design events if they waved the main rule. I said yes. I have never heard from the gentleman again.

I campaign and promote the boat, I've worked with local PHRF to make the boat more competitive. I work with local J/30 owners to attempt 1 design sailing. And now I'm working to try to take away one more barrier for local sailors to be interested in J-30's. I think you are quite a bit off base to say that "I'm playing a different game with a different set or rules" I'm playing in the same game with the cards that I'm dealt!

posted 06-26-2008 03:16 PM            

Overall, if I still had my boat, I would prefer to have the flexiblity to choose mainsail material, but would not fight hard for it.

On a different note, the 0.5oz chute is essential for PHRF racing in light air venues. Someone said just unload all the crap off the boat. That doesn't really fix how the sail flies. In the light stuff the 0.75 may fill, but still sags while the 0.5 flies alot higher with better shape. On LIS you rate the same in PHRF with no sail limitations and a 1260lb weight limit as you rate in one-design with 1400lb weight limit, so it was easy for me to give up the weight for the spinnaker and other sails (especially for genoas before the rule change).

posted 06-27-2008 05:25 PM         

Bob, you are right, a throw down is a rather harsh position to take. I could have said nothing and ignored the request for dues as others do. I sent my first e-mail in an attempt to get someone's attention. I did that rather than, as in the past, watch as the one-designers, it seems as if in a vacumn, discussed how main sail cloth doesn't matter. Just this year, the association spent more time arguing over a couple of pounds of stove weight.

What I gather from the J/30 sailors that I talk to around these parts is, that they are indifferent to the association's efforts towards one design. Here, most everyone seems to be focused on how to maximize their efforts in PHRF (in Western lake Erie there are only 2 boats that sail with a OD rating). And I sit at NCYC, one boat away from the beginning of a fleet asking myself what can be done to attract more to buy J/30's or to attract some more to one design racing.

I doubt that changing the main cloth will get you anymore boats for the nationals but it might get me and some others closer to one design racing in our local areas. It appears that the association is somewhat myopic as it looks inward rather than really considering what it takes to build enthusiasm in areas away from the traditional one design fleets. That may not be true but it is a perception I carry.

If I still lived in Boston where I started with this boat and raced every Wed. with 6-10 other J-30's, I wouldn't care what the sails were so long as everyone raced with same ones.

I won't ask how you know that NCYC has 6 active Hobie 33's, but I will speak to the owners and ask for their input.
I helmed a Hobie 33 two years ago in their national event, I raced on one last Tuesday and I'm doing the Port Huron to Macinac on one. Being familiar with the fleet and the boat, I have some opinions as to what they're doing to promote 1 design(Rather than the kevlar main it's probalby the 1/2 oz kite), but I will ask them first hand and report back to you with thier input.

posted 07-07-2008 06:45 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Russ Atkinson:
I won't ask how you know that NCYC has 6 active Hobie 33's

---

No magic. I looked at the results of races at your club and noticed a number with the same PHRF ratings. Then I looked at your local PHRF rating organization which allowed me to list boats by club, took the clubs near you and ratings. Viola, six Hobie 33s. I sailed the demo model years ago and found it to be an interesting boat.

posted 07-18-2008 07:01 PM            

- To get a OD start, no one here really complains about sail material as long as the OD dimensions are adhered to. And, I've see J/30s win with a wide variety of sail technology. One boat I drove did quite well despite a recut main that would be worthy of a photo caption contest on Sailing Anarchy.
- It's my opinion that a higher tech sail will provide better performance in a wider range of conditions. It will also hold shape (not necessarily construction...) longer. And, if used properly, it *may* provide a better return on investment over a dacron sail.
- While it's entertaining to read, unless you are a sailmaker or CAT 1 with a dacron main, I would strongly argue that on identically configured and sailed boats, a newer technology sail will perform better.
- On the other hand, I would also comfortably state that even with the best carbon string sails vs. dacron, if you botch a few tacks/gybes, get a bad start, or miss a shift benefitting a gybeset here or there, the dacron boat will probably win.
- I'll likely be in the market for a new suit of sails next year. When I buy, I'll likely buy carbon/aramid because the benefit/cost ratio is simply higher. High-tech materials and construction cost have come way down. Further, since about 60%+ of my racing will be PHRF with pervasive use of advanced sails, it simply makes sense to bring a gun to a gunfight. ;-)
- I used to sail a OD dinghy that went from all dacron to 49er style, reinforced mylar sails. The new look/performance potential GREW the fleet because it effectively moved the fleet forward. Sail cost remained the same. So - here's a thought: IF the restriction (and I'm honestly not saying it should be) were removed, it *might* draw more boats out of their slips (or owners away from other classes) to join a dynamic, high bang-for-buck class that gives flexibility to the owner to tweak a little.

It's my opinion that high-end sails are faster but not so much so that they would ruin a OD J/30 fleet. You have to sail well (boathandling and tactics) to do well and in my experience, that plays a more significant role in the overall results dynamic.

Just my $.02.

posted 07-23-2008 10:27 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Phil:
It seems that the cloth restriction's main purpose is to keep the cost of sailing as a OD Fleet as affordable as possible, with two kids in College and two more enroliing in the next two years I wholly support.

So if that's the intent, what is the difference in price between a Dacron Main and a alternative fabric ?

---

I just had my North sailmaker quote me retail prices on Dacron vs their best 3DL main: Dacron 3k, Carbon ~5300

To me that is a huge difference for a sail that does not last twice as long nor is it twice as fast. Sexy factor is very high though (-:

David
#397

[This message has been edited by dbows (edited 07-23-2008).]

posted 07-26-2008 08:19 PM            

To me that is a huge difference for a sail that does not last twice as long nor is it twice as fast. Sexy factor is very high though (-:

David
#397

AND:

I bought Quantum Fusion X three years ago; both Main and a 155% #1. These sails are used every week and the main is left on board. Just last week one of my neighbors asked me old are those sails...3 years old...no way, they look almost brand new. I will say they are in incredible shape as there designers intended. The cost for a Dacron main was $3,000 and the Fusion X was $4,100. I specifically bought Fusion X due to it's ability to hold shape and the projected life of the sail.

Don't know about prices above, but my Quantum Fusion X cost $3,688 one month ago. Only a 20% premium over the Dacron. Sounds like a good tradeoff to me. Expect it to hold its shape much longer than the Dacron for a longer EFFECTIVE life.

posted 09-14-2008 07:45 PM            

North Sails (New Orleans) class specification Dacron Main with battens, roll bag, etc.: $3000 (delivered Sept 2008)

Quantum (Annapolis) quotation Fusion X Aramid 16 Twaron Mainsail with battens, bag, etc. $3267 - valid through 9/27/2008

posted 10-29-2008 01:18 PM         

I will be purchasing a new non-Dacron mainsail this winter. The curent sail is now 5 years old; is a UK kevlar tape drive with carbon fiber tapes. It's been raced hard for the entire 5 years and has seen several severe floggings in 50+ knot squalls. It is well used. It has also performed well, winning it's share of silver up thru and including this year.

I have stated that I beleive that "hi-tech" sails will be cost positive or are cost equal to a less expense dacron main; as measured in terms of useful life. To test that theory I suggest that someone find a comparablly used Dacron sail among the many Dacron proponents out there and have Quantum, or another sail loft, do a shape analysis on it (Quantum will do it for free). In the spring when I put the sail back on the mast, I'll also have Quantun do a shape analysis on my old sail. We could then compare the numbers. As well, we could do the same with new sails - compare at the beginning of the year and at the end to see the impact of shape deterioration over time. Maybe then the decision making process on main sails could begin to be less subjective. Who knows, maybe you can convince me to buy Dacron.