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Re: Dacron Main [Re: Russ Atkinson] #11190
02/26/11 09:34 AM
02/26/11 09:34 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 80
Melbourne, FL
sailon Offline
Senior Member
sailon  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 80
Melbourne, FL
Referring to the minimum cloth weight. Some classes, (S27.9) weigh the sails. I would propose that if laminates are allowed, that the overall weight of the sail must equal the weight of the Dacron main that is currently specified. Weight aloft in a one design class should not vary with respect to sail material. As far as What would Rod do, What he did is to establish a propritary one design class. That is what he is expert at. If you want to play in the one design game, everyone plays by the same rules. There are lots of great boats out there that have no restrictions on sailcloth. I am finding in my inexperience that the 30 is actually more restrictive than the J-24 is in many respects, but that is OK. Everyone plays the game the same way, and the best sailor wins.

If the class is serious about going the unrestricted sailcloth way, here is a proposal:

1. The overall sail must be weighed, and its weight should be equal to the weight of a current class Dacron sail.
2. Establish an evaluation period where a small sample of boats compete at a national regatta. 4 boats, 2 raced by former class champion crews and 2 raced by average sailors. Evaluate the performance of the laminate boats, vs the dacron main boats.

At the next class meeting, determine whether the laminates had any advantage vs. the cost spent over the laminates and put it up to a class vote.

Last edited by sailon; 02/26/11 09:35 AM.
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Re: Dacron Main [Re: Russ Atkinson] #11210
02/28/11 02:14 PM
02/28/11 02:14 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 392
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 392
Rockwood, MI, USA
Regarding sail weight; to get similar strength equivelents, higher tech sails will invariably weigh less than Dacron. To require a high tech sail to weigh the same as the Dacron sail is in effect, a cute way of eliminating high tech sails from anyone's inventory.
I'm OK with having a sail weight requirement if the purpose is to insure that someone doesn't go out and buy a "throw away" sail for one race or one regatta. As well, I'm confident that the sailmakers will be able to tell us what the proper sail cloth weight should be for an all purpose, high tech main.
Bottom line, the class needs to decided whether to go unresticted on main cloth or not. Who's kidding whom, putting restrictions on high tech sails that make it so impractical to actually have one is not a solution - make a decision!

Re: Dacron Main [Re: Russ Atkinson] #11219
03/01/11 03:29 PM
03/01/11 03:29 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 97
Bainbridge Island, WA
JBro Offline
Senior Member
JBro  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 97
Bainbridge Island, WA
I agree and I support lifted restrictions on materals. Adding a weight requirement is like using new materials to build a race car but overbuilding to make sure it weighs what it would have weighed 30 years before. I get it technically - I just don't think it's wise.

While I understand the OD point, I think the fleet needs to consider whether unlimited material is framed as an unfair advantage boat-for-boat or an advantage to draw more potential boat owners into the fleet. Bigger fleet = better OD health and possibilities.

The tactics re: how to test are good suggestions, BTW. This example has been used in Tasars and is now showing up in Moths with wings compared to softsails.

It seems to me that this is ultimately needs to be looked at as a class/boat longevity issue. I believe that relaxing material restrictions will make the boat (and class) more attractive, make it more competitive in handicap fleets, expand the addressable pool and pull in more owners, make the boat a little more "sexy" (did I just say that????!), and continue into the next 25 years. Otherwise, restricting for those that want (or need) both OD and handicap sailing could make the boat a nonstarter for some potential owners and boats on the course.

My worry isn't about that other J/30 sailor that has a "weapon" of a mainsail. I'm worried about the crew on other boats in handicap distance races - maybe a few years from buying a boat - that see a dacron main and bottom of fleet results and say, "why would anyone buy that boat?"

That's my $.02.
- Jeff

Last edited by JBro; 03/01/11 03:34 PM.

- Jeff
J/30 #426 - Watusi
Re: Dacron Main [Re: Russ Atkinson] #11221
03/01/11 06:47 PM
03/01/11 06:47 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 80
Melbourne, FL
sailon Offline
Senior Member
sailon  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 80
Melbourne, FL
I am afraid my view is quite the opposite. I am finding a resurgance in interest in the J-30, especially from people who want to ease up on the race circuit and be able to go cruising. The appearance of "high tech" mains may actually be a turn off for these crowds. I didn't buy my boat because of the main material, I bought it because of the people in the class, and the ability of the boat to race and cruise comfortably. Did I buy my boat because of the material that the main is made of? No. As for making the boat more competitve in handicap fleets, I would rather spend the extra money on a .5 oz spinnaker. Light air is where the boat struggles (or so I hear). Boat performance is not going to be dependant on whether it is a Dacron or a laminate mainsail. The Dacron will be just as fast out of the bag. BTW, memories of a well sailed J-30 gave me fits in all wind ranges when I used to race a Soverel 30.

Re: Dacron Main [Re: sailon] #11228
03/02/11 12:32 AM
03/02/11 12:32 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 97
Bainbridge Island, WA
JBro Offline
Senior Member
JBro  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 97
Bainbridge Island, WA
All very good points and I completely understand. Candidly, that Furlex currently on my boat and the way it's setup look to be very cruising-focused for the next year or so with family. And - most of this years budget? Going to virtually all things that likely make the boat more comfortable vs. faster! So, I can completely appreciate the appeal and your points.

I guess I just don't see that it makes much difference in the end and I always err towards choice and flexibility being a good philosophy. Honestly, if someone has a nice carbon-laminate main and makes poor tactical decisions or doesn't handle the boat well, the advantage is likely neutralized anyways. ;-)

The main material allowed will not make or break this class which is a testament to a great design and people involved with the class. And, that in itself is a cool thing about the J/30 and why we chose one too!

- Jeff


- Jeff
J/30 #426 - Watusi
Re: Dacron Main [Re: sailon] #11230
03/02/11 12:58 AM
03/02/11 12:58 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 97
Bainbridge Island, WA
JBro Offline
Senior Member
JBro  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 97
Bainbridge Island, WA
BTW - any chance you might want to do a boatswap for a few days... we have a lovely 37degF, 40mph wind, and... rain. A little sunshine and warm water would be so nice! ;-)


- Jeff
J/30 #426 - Watusi
Re: Dacron Main [Re: Russ Atkinson] #11231
03/02/11 11:06 AM
03/02/11 11:06 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 80
Melbourne, FL
sailon Offline
Senior Member
sailon  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 80
Melbourne, FL
Jeff, After the shrouds and chainplates are fixed, come on down. Would love to get a few pointers. I too have a Furlex on my headstay, but have been looking at how to take it apart for the occasional serious races.

BTW for the rest of the main discussion, if anyone is racing IRC (which I have considerd) the main material COULD result in a rating change. The amount is decided within the secret society of course, however, sailcloth is factored into the IRC formula.

Re: Dacron Main [Re: Russ Atkinson] #11241
03/04/11 02:31 PM
03/04/11 02:31 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 675
Maryland, USA
Bob Rutsch Offline
Governor at Large
Bob Rutsch  Offline
Governor at Large
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 675
Maryland, USA
Sure Russ, I get sarcasm, but try to ignore it, as it does little to foster reasonable, constructive dialog. I get irony too, noting you purchased mainsails in 2004 and 2008, so 2012 might be good for you, but maybe not for the dozen boats racing one-design in Annapolis that have or will get new Dacron mainsails in advance of the 2011 NA's there.

I'll try not to rehash my previous posts or opinions, since they're substantially unchanged and easy enough review by scrolling back. Is there anything compelling, in terms of materials, construction, pricing, how or where we sail that would persuade the BOG to reconsider this decision? Or is this just the same debate we have been having for more than twenty years?

Re: Dacron Main [Re: Russ Atkinson] #11243
03/04/11 05:36 PM
03/04/11 05:36 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 392
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 392
Rockwood, MI, USA
Let's see, you know there are 6 Hobie 33's racing out of North Cape (my club), you know I bought sails in 2004 and 2008. In case you are wondering, I change my underwear every day too. It's nice that you worry so much about me.
And since you are so interested in me, the sail that was bought in 2008 has just over 1 full year of use. The sail I bought previous to the 2004 sail was bought in 1997 (also a high tech sail). In reality, as much as you want to make it about me, I would not be buying new sails in 2012 unless I do the Nationals.
BTY, what a coincedence that 10-12 boats will all be buying new sails in 2011 and not 2012- so what really is your point?

And for the record, this winter I told a couple of senior BOG members I was done fighting this issue. If the J/30 Class doesn't want to change then don't. I'll go race PHRF next year and try to defend my title as 2010 Western Lake Erie Boat of the Year - in case you didn't know that, apparently I do know a little bit about sailing the boat, the effect of good sails, etc.

I was asked to take this further and agreed to. And as I agreed, I will submit a request to my BOG representative to submit for a rules change once I get agreement on a sail weight. He can do with it what he wants and if submitted the BOG can do what they want with it. I'm done selling, I'm done arguing, I'm done poking and done period.

You've done your best to insult me and make it about everything but the sail- you want to be constructive; make it about the sail.

Re: Dacron Main [Re: Russ Atkinson] #11246
03/04/11 09:07 PM
03/04/11 09:07 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,234
Newport and Naples
Cap'n Vic Offline
Senior Member
Cap'n Vic  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,234
Newport and Naples
Bob... twenty years ago High Tech was garbarge .. so it appears than as High Tech becomes more practical, the subject needs to resurface as most of us race PHRF. And those guys we race against are pretty much all Kevlar.

But then again we all had dacron jibs 20 years ago ...

I will not be sailing OD in Narragansett Bay this summer. A J30 without roller furling and slugged main is a dinosour and a crew killer ...

duh as our j30 designers currently seem also to believe.

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