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Re: Dacron Main [Re: Russ Atkinson] #11350
03/17/11 06:11 PM
03/17/11 06:11 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 379
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 379
Rockwood, MI, USA
Here's another question about sail weight
If there were a rule on sail weight for "string" sails (and if the class doesn't put a weight restriction that effectively blocks ever using a string sail), then the weight would hopefully be different than the current weight for Dacron which the rules now say is a minimum cloth weight of 6.25 oz.

So the question is; would there still be a minimum cloth weight for Dacron Sails of 6.25 oz that is different from the weight limits for string sails?


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Re: Dacron Main [Re: Russ Atkinson] #11353
03/18/11 03:13 AM
03/18/11 03:13 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 370
Squamish, British Columbia
NaturalHigh Offline
Senior Member
NaturalHigh  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 370
Squamish, British Columbia
This isn't really about me as I am unlikely to sail a National OD event. But my reasons:

1. Purely budget. I am only 30 years old, single income and own a house in a ridiculously expensive market. An extra one or two thousand dollars will mean no bottom overhaul which is very much needed. I probably can't even afford the Dacron main.

2. Longevity (related to budget). If I race this main exclusively for 5 or 6 years, then I can retire it to cruising and maybe then buy a tech sail and have both. I have a lot of years of sailing ahead of me; no sense in going for broke right away and needing to replace an expensive sail and not having anything decent to cruise.

3. Winning isn't everything for me. I race with fun crew that one slow tack will burn up every inch of advantage a string sail gets me. Not worth the money to me. Besides, Dacron is still competitive in our PHRF fleet here and the rest of my sails are 1982.

I fully grasp the advantages of laminate sails to racing; I was actually "begging the question". Finished weights of the laminate sails is the easiest to manage as a OD rule but could never be deemed so heavy as to be a similar weight to Dacron, thus we fall back to the root of the issue: Dacron may not remain competitive against tech mains, so the class would need to decide if that creates greater costs for competitive boats.

Re: Dacron Main [Re: Russ Atkinson] #11354
03/18/11 10:47 AM
03/18/11 10:47 AM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 379
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 379
Rockwood, MI, USA
Thanks for the input. And again, my questions were directed at trying to understand a rationale as to why a PHRF boat might consider Dacron.
And too, I would agree that changing the rule could have the effect of raising the cost (in my view slightly) for someone that does nothing but OD.

On the other hand, I did invest in string sails. Most of my PHRF fleet and the few other J/30's in our area have string sails. While I'd like to think my crew has fun, we are also pretty serious about racing and as well, winning. I.E. 2010 Western Lake Erie "Boat of the Year".

For us, the cost of doing OD is far more significant than for the OD guy that will upgrade. I must buy one sail for a once a year OD national and a second sail for PHRF.
I also beleive, and I think the survey results will back me up in that the majority of the J/30's race PHRF. As technology continues to move away from Dacron and as the price differential continues to drop - more and more of the J/30 PHRF boats will be going string sails. Folks such as me that are trying to keep the boat relevant and do want to also do OD are being penalized at the class level.

Re: Dacron Main [Re: Russ Atkinson] #11361
03/22/11 05:12 PM
03/22/11 05:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 379
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 379
Rockwood, MI, USA
Today I spoke with both the local UK (western Michigan) and Doyle sailmakers. Both recommended using bag weight as the best method for measuring/controlling sail cloth. One offered to provide recommended verbiage to use to help protect against hanging unintended weights on the sail. I will report back when they respond.
Also, both suggested the easist way to come up with a bag weight is to simply weigh a couple of sails. Since I have my original dacron main + 3 string mains I will weigh them all and report that as well.

Further, one of the sail makers suggested that if the class were to adopt going to string sails that it also consider changing the rule on the number of battens from 4 to a max of 5. His beleif is that a fifth batten will help to exptend the life of the sail.

Any thoughts on allowing a 5th batten? BTW I have 2 older ones designed with 5 battens and my newest has 4.

Re: Dacron Main [Re: Russ Atkinson] #11363
03/22/11 07:29 PM
03/22/11 07:29 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 370
Squamish, British Columbia
NaturalHigh Offline
Senior Member
NaturalHigh  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 370
Squamish, British Columbia
I wonder if there would be any potential for cost savings on laminates if the class put an exclusive sail contract out to tender which would provide a fixed price for sails for a certain number of years. That could pretty much guarantee equity for OD racing but the removal of your "secret sailmaker" and his creativity might be a downside to some.

Just throwing things out there. I'd imagine getting the class to agree on a sailmaker and a design would be like herding cats.

Re: Dacron Main [Re: Russ Atkinson] #11366
03/22/11 09:48 PM
03/22/11 09:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 80
Melbourne, FL
sailon Offline
Senior Member
sailon  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 80
Melbourne, FL
Natural High is pointing us to the J-44 path. How well does that work for them??? Could it be relevent for us? Just a thought

Last edited by sailon; 03/22/11 09:48 PM.
Re: Dacron Main [Re: sailon] #11373
03/22/11 11:37 PM
03/22/11 11:37 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 76
Wilton, CT
B
bemusv2 Offline
Senior Member
bemusv2  Offline
Senior Member
B
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 76
Wilton, CT
I think he's suggesting is that the class could try to work out a pricing deal with a particular sailmaking firm which would allow for consistent pricing and sail cut/shape across the board for adopters in the class who would wish to adopt string sails for OD should that ever come to pass.

I would hesitate trying restrict cuts and shapes. Sail dimensions should remain the way that they are... not that I have a say. I'm just thinking out loud.

Re: Dacron Main [Re: Russ Atkinson] #11379
03/23/11 06:39 PM
03/23/11 06:39 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 379
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 379
Rockwood, MI, USA
The local Doyle sail maker got back to me today with some verbiage to use:

The Main shall have a minimum weight of *_____*, excluding battens. The intent of the rule is that all sails submitted for measurement will be constructed using well establish sailmaking techniques. The class reserves the right to reject any sail with additional weight added to the sail that is determined to be there for the sole purpose of meeting the minimum weight.

So far my sail maker, Dieball Sails, has offered a recommendation of using 9-10kg as the minimum weight. Over the weekend, I'll pull my old sails (1 Dacron + 2 old string sails) out of the attic and weigh them and report back.

Does anyone have contact with a North Sail Loft that could offer input on the weight of a 3DL main?

I'd be happy with a rules change that allows string sails so there's no push from me on changing battens. That said, one sail maker suggested it - any thoughts on allowing 5 battens? Or, should I leave this one alone?

Re: Dacron Main [Re: Russ Atkinson] #11420
03/28/11 09:41 AM
03/28/11 09:41 AM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 379
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 379
Rockwood, MI, USA
OK...

I weighed my two oldest sting mains. The oldest, a UK kevlar tape drive weighed in at 27lbs. The second, which is newer (I think Bob Rutsch said it was a 2004 - 7 years ago) is a UK carbon tape sail that weighed in at 25lbs or 11.3kg. I'm pretty sure my newest sail weighs more (although I didn't weigh it because it is stored at the sailmaker).

My newest sail is not the most expensive that my sail maker offered at the time. As I've shared, my sailmaker said that the more expensive sail would have weighed less than my current sail. Too, he recommended a sail weight of 9-10kg (by comparison, my sail weights listed above are based on roughly 11 and 7 year old technology).

Thus, allowing for a little technological advancement in the last 7 years, I'm going to submit my rules change request with a sail weight of 10kg as follows:

The Main shall have a minimum weight of 10kg, excluding battens. The intent of the rule is that all sails submitted for measurement will be constructed using well establish sailmaking techniques. The class reserves the right to reject any sail with additional weight added to the sail that is determined to be there for the sole purpose of meeting the minimum weight.

Re: Dacron Main [Re: Russ Atkinson] #11480
04/08/11 11:43 AM
04/08/11 11:43 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 148
Annapolis, MD US
LChristy Offline
J/30 Class Measurer
LChristy  Offline
J/30 Class Measurer
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 148
Annapolis, MD US
After reviewing some of the 14 pages of posts on this issue I feel obliged to add my views. I have owned a J30 for 22 years and served as National Class Measurer for about 8 years. One of the main reasons for buying and staying with a J30 is the one design nature of the boat.
• Basically the PHRF guys want the OD guys to spend more money for Kevlar main sails for the oft chance that a couple of PHRF guys might attend a OD design event or NA's. Not really worth the money.
• Surveying the major sailmakers, it appears that the cost difference is about $800 to $2,000 or more for Kevlar. For years the sailmakers in Annapolis have told us that switching to a Kevlar or string main is not worth the additional cost. For OD sailing I am fairly sure they still feel that way.
• Not only will dacron mains cost less, but they are durable enough to be used for Wednesday night racing or cruising after 2 or 3 years. A Kevlar or string sail after the same use might be useful as a drop cloth for painting. I sell my old dacron mains and not being able to sell a string main in effect adds additional cost to making the change.
• Perhaps some local sailmakers may not be able to provide string sails so some owners may be forced to change sailmakers.
• From some of the comments posted on the forum it appears we are talking about a total difference of 5 lbs in weight. I am sure the PHRF guys will claim they can tell the difference. But I am not so sure. One bad tack or being on the wrong side of a small shift and there will be no advantage.
• To put it another way if you take the top skipper and crew in the fleet who sail with a string main and switch them with the skipper and crew of a boat in the back of the fleet with a dacron main who do think will win the regatta.
• Perhaps the most important issue may involve PHRF ratings. For Chesapeake Bay PHRF ratings, changing the main sail cloth would add 6 sec to the rating. However, in other parts of the country the PHRF handicappers do not take sailcloth in-to consideration. I wonder if Mr. Atkinson would be sailing with a string main if he had to pay 6 sec a mile for it. Perhaps this would be too "expensive."

So it comes down to cost and is it worth it? I do not think so. How many PHRF guys would be so supportive of the change if their rating decreased by 6 seconds.


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