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Re: Dacron Main [Re: Russ Atkinson] #11481
04/08/11 03:43 PM
04/08/11 03:43 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
A few comments,
1. I'm betting that most of the PHRF areas don't penalize for for sail material, and if that's true then the J/30 Class would be held back by a handful of Chesapeake OD sailors that don't want to keep the boat relavent for anything other than THEIR OD sailing - that to me would hardly be good for the Class.
2. I find it hard to beleive that every boat in the Chesapeake Bay sails with Dacron sails. I'm wondering if the sail cloth penalty is applied to boats where a class allows string sails. For example, the newer J/Boats allow string sails for OD sailing. Do those boats get hit with the 6 second penalty or is it just that the 6 seconds applies to boats that violate their class rule? Is there a 6 second penalty for head sails too?
3. I currently carry 6 seconds of penalty for sailing OD configuration - I don't sail a PHRF beater boat. And, I did appeal the local PHRF on the spinnaker pole rule and won. Why don't you appeal the 6 second rule.
4. You tell us about the cost diferential of a string main and that they don't last. How do you know? I'm on my third one and thus I have a pretty good bench mark for how long they last. They last about 5 years and are in race condition pretty much throughout that life - I doubt one can honestly say that for Dacron. No sailmaker I've talked to will say that (at least not for the level of racing we do)
5. For me and most every other PHRF sailor that wants to race OD, the cost penalty to us is quite high to have to buy two sails. One for PHRF and one for OD. And again, I'm betting there are a lot more PHRF racers than the hand full of OD guys that get a penalty for string sails. Should the class make a rule for the entire Class or just for the benifit of the Chesapeake OD'ers
6. I'm thinking that if my sail maker can't make string sails - I've got at least 2 sailmakeres because one can't make my class legal head sails.
7. The arguement of taking a top level skipper with a dacron sail and putting him up against a back of the fleet sailor with a string sail and see who wins isn't relavent. The question that is relavent is; top level skipper with a string sail vs top level skipper with a dacron sail - which one has the advantage?8. One can tell us all about how a string sail doesn't make a difference... "one bad tack etc, etc. One can make that same arguement about fairing a keel, upgrading to low strech sheets, cutting the covers off of halyards, sanding a bottom to an ultra fine finish and on and on. I hear those arguements every year - mostly from the guys sitting at the bar that don't win flags. As Dennis Conner said about how to win an America's Cup race - "start with the fastest boat"

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Re: Dacron Main [Re: Russ Atkinson] #11485
04/09/11 11:03 AM
04/09/11 11:03 AM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 675
Maryland, USA
Bob Rutsch Offline
Governor at Large
Bob Rutsch  Offline
Governor at Large
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 675
Maryland, USA
Interesting perspective on PHRF, which like the America's Cup nearly, if not always, goes to the fastest boat. The Cup is a a design competition within a box rule. PHRF attempts to compare unlike boats and allows wide latitude and local determination as to what is considered in the rating. The single builder J/30 raced one-design is intended to assure that the boats are the same, within the limits of class rules. It's difficult to reconcile these differences.

Re: Dacron Main [Re: Russ Atkinson] #11494
04/10/11 06:39 PM
04/10/11 06:39 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
While an OD rule is intended to make boats similar it doesn't guarantee that boats are identical. Several changes are allowed under the current rule that could make consideralble differences in boat speed. Here are some.
Sail maker and sail cut can have an impact on boat speed. Rig tuning, bottom surface, keel fairing, age of sails, moving and double ending the backstay adjuster, carbon fiber pole, cutting the cover off of halyards - all could provide incremental inprovements in boat speed. How about "dry sailing" the boat vs wet sailing. This list could get pretty lengthy but what's included above should make the point.

Some OD events try to level the field by using one sailmaker and by making the competitors rotate boats in a regatta. - J/30 OD events do not. Therefore, J/30 boats that show up at an OD evernt are different - not the same.

For purposes of the discussion let's simplify the quote to "how do you win a sailboat race? - Start with the fastest boat"

So, back to relavent comparisons; do the front of the fleet sailors, pay attention to most, if not all the details of making the boat fast before leaving the dock? Probalby, and if so why?
Most likely because they want to "START WITH THE FASTEST BOAT"

Regardless the point of starting with the fastest boat was made in regards to an earlier post that said one bad tack would offset the benifits of a string sail. And to that point, the idea, I think, is not to make bad tacks. But, If a bad tack happens, I'd rather have a boat tha can accelerate out of the tack faster - which leads us back to string vs. Dacron

Last edited by Russ Atkinson; 04/10/11 06:48 PM.
Re: Dacron Main [Re: Russ Atkinson] #11495
04/10/11 07:03 PM
04/10/11 07:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
Last fall we delivered Wildcat 35 miles in open water to an island regatta. For the entire trip, the wind blew steady 30k with gusts to 40; waves on our hip at 6 to 10 ft. We used our 2004 carbon fiber tape main as our delivery sail. We used it for the return as well, mostly as a weather vane as the storm blew itself out on the first day of the regatta. Other than the paint stains from having used it as a drop cloth the sail looked good and held up fine - LOL.

Re: Dacron Main [Re: Russ Atkinson] #11496
04/10/11 08:01 PM
04/10/11 08:01 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
Can someone help here?

The following is from the Chesapeake Bay PHRF application
4. SAILS: [ ] Request BOTH Spinnaker and NS ratings -- (Provide all mainsail, headsail, and spinnaker info required below)
[ ] Request ONLY a NS rating -- Will not race with spinnakers this season (Provide the mainsail and headsail info required below)
MAINSAIL: Number Battens: _____; Using Roller Furling Mainsail; furling in the [ ] Mast, or furling in the[ ] Boom;
Oversize girth mainsail? [ ] No, [ ] Yes; If Yes, record following dimensions. Headboard _____, MGT_____, MGU_____, MGM_____, MGL_____
HEADSAIL: Largest jib/genoa: Midgirth less than or equal 50%. Overlap (LP): _______.____ft., and/or (Overlap percentage): %LP__________
[ ] Using Roller Furling Headsails: RF Sailcloth is: [ ] Woven(Dacron/other), or [ ] Lam/molded (Mylar, Kevlar, Spectra, etc.)
RF Laminated sail cloth protected on both sides by taffeta skin? [ ]Yes, [ ] No; Year/month RF Headsail was built ( ________/_______)
RF Headsail has leech and foot cover of UV protected woven material of at least 4.0 oz? [ ] Yes, or [ ] No
RF Headsail drum is installed above deck level [ ]; or RF Headsail drum is installed at, or below deck level [ ].
[ ] Using "Code 0", or Sail with Midgirth between 50% and 75% (record measurements below)

I couldn't find anything in the application nor in the document labeled PHRF rating system that addresses sail material. The only mention to sailclothe material is in the section about Roller Furling sails - and there it says Laminated Mylar, Kevlar sails are leagal.

Perhaps I've missed something, the only conclusion I can draw is that the J/30 is penalized for non-conformance to OD configuration. If that's true, then if the J/30 Class allows string sails, the Chesapeake sailors would no longer be penalized

Re: Dacron Main [Re: Russ Atkinson] #11497
04/11/11 10:36 AM
04/11/11 10:36 AM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 675
Maryland, USA
Bob Rutsch Offline
Governor at Large
Bob Rutsch  Offline
Governor at Large
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 675
Maryland, USA
PHRF Chesapeake 2011 PHRF Fleet Policies..."Equipment...One Design Ratings will only be provided to CBYRA recognized One Design Classes. In the event that the applicable class rules for a CBYRA recognized one-design class conflict with these regulations, the class rules shall take precedence." Also "Classes...one design class rules, which limit headsail size, sail materials, or spinnakers do not apply to PHRF, unless the boat is rated as a one design class (italics mine)....PHRF may, when requested by established one design classes, assign a rating to the one design configuration of that class. Each individual boat which desires to be issued a one design rating (ODR), must specifically request an ODR and agree to race only in that configuration in PHRF handicapped races."

Re: Dacron Main [Re: Russ Atkinson] #11498
04/11/11 11:11 AM
04/11/11 11:11 AM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 675
Maryland, USA
Bob Rutsch Offline
Governor at Large
Bob Rutsch  Offline
Governor at Large
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 675
Maryland, USA
PHRF of the Cheaspeake Valid List dated 4/7/2011 has the J/30 one-design rating (ODR) 144 and non-ODR 155% headsail J/30 also 144. A non-ODR J/30 using a 163% would be rated faster.

Re: Dacron Main [Re: Russ Atkinson] #11502
04/11/11 11:50 AM
04/11/11 11:50 AM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 675
Maryland, USA
Bob Rutsch Offline
Governor at Large
Bob Rutsch  Offline
Governor at Large
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 675
Maryland, USA
The 'start with the fastest boat' idea is precisely why one-design sailors are unlikely to ever reach consensus with those consigned to handicap. Prep and rig according to your personal preference, while staying within the limits of the rules. But the goal is to start each race even, not with an advantage. That wouldn't make for good one-design racing.

Re: Dacron Main [Re: Russ Atkinson] #11503
04/11/11 12:29 PM
04/11/11 12:29 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
Thanks for the info.

Bottom line, it doesn't appear that you get penalized for sail material. You get penalized for non compliance to the J/30 OD ruling on sail material. If the J/30 Class changes the rules to allow string sails, you would not take a penalty for having a string sail.

Being more specific, you sighted the non ODR J/30 with a 155% headsail racing with the same 144 rating as you ODR boat. So if you sail with a string sail you are no longer ODR compliant - correct? Other questions: do you get 3 seconds for non ODR compliance and another 3 seconds for the 163% headsail? Does the non ODR compliant J/30 with a 155% and a string sail rate the same as you at 144?

And... somone has to say it; here I've been thinking 141 was a good rating. 144 for ODR... cupcake, cupcake, cupcake!!! Shhh, be very, very quiet about that. LOL

Re: Dacron Main [Re: Russ Atkinson] #11509
04/11/11 01:15 PM
04/11/11 01:15 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 675
Maryland, USA
Bob Rutsch Offline
Governor at Large
Bob Rutsch  Offline
Governor at Large
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 675
Maryland, USA
Comply with class rules (sail material, crew weight, gear on board, etc.) or you don't get the ODR . Base rating of a non-ODR J/30 assumes standard local PHRF limit of 155% LP Genoa without penalty.

Might take a little time but if the class changed the rules to make the boat go faster, PHRF would notice and adjust the rating, don't you think?

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