After receiving significant input from the class membership and after discussions with various sail makers and with J/Boats the board of governors is proposing that the following revisions to the mainsail material be voted upon at the next Board of governors meeting which will be held at the North Americans in September 2011

The following is the wording as it will read

5.12.1.2 The spinnaker shall be manufactured from woven ply nylon

5.12.1.3 Sailcloth in the mainsail, #1, #2 and #3 Genoa is not restricted. This change in approved main sailcloth goes into effect no later than 1 May 2013. Individual J30 Class Districts may adopt this change for local events at an earlier date.

5.12.2.1 The mainsail minimum bag weight (without battens) shall be not less than 13.6 kilograms (30 lbs).

For completeness using text formatting that would be included in the rules change, here is the full text of what Charlie stated above in the full context of the rules with surrounding paragraphs.

Original:

5.12.1.2 Mainsail shall be manufactured from woven ply polyethylene terephthalate (“PET”), such as Dacron®, or woven ply polyethylene naphthalate (“PEN”), such as Pentex®. The spinnaker shall be manufactured from woven ply nylon.

5.12.1.3 Sailcloth in the #1, #2 and #3 Genoa is not restricted.
This change in approved sailcloth goes into effect no later than October 17, 2005. Individual J30 Class Districts may adopt this change for local events at an earlier date.

5.12.1.4 Sail numbers shall be placed immediately above the third batten (#2 sewn from the head of the mainsail) on the #1 and larger genoa in line with the mainsail numbers and on the spinnaker. The starboard or forward number shall be on top.

5.12.1.5 Genoa #2 is optional and does not need to be on board while racing.

5.12.1.6 Numbers shall be of the following dimensions in solid black, red, green or blue: height = 380mm, width = 254mm, thickness = 57-77mm, spacing = 77mm.

5.12.1.7 Windows. There is no limit on the number or design of collision, telltale, or spreader tip windows on the mainsail or genoas.

5.12.2 Mainsail

5.12.2.1 Minimum cloth weight is 6.25 oz.

Proposed:

5.12.1.2 Mainsail shall be manufactured from woven ply polyethylene terephthalate (“PET”), such as Dacron®, or woven ply polyethylene naphthalate (“PEN”), such as Pentex®. The spinnaker shall be manufactured from woven ply nylon.

5.12.1.3 Sailcloth in the mainsail, #1, #2 and #3 Genoa is not restricted. This change in approved main sailcloth goes into effect no later than 1 May 2013. Individual J30 Class Districts may adopt this change for local events at an earlier date.

5.12.1.4 Sail numbers shall be placed immediately above the third batten (#2 sewn from the head of the mainsail) on the #1 and larger genoa in line with the mainsail numbers and on the spinnaker. The starboard or forward number shall be on top.

5.12.1.5 Genoa #2 is optional and does not need to be on board while racing.

5.12.1.6 Numbers shall be of the following dimensions in solid black, red, green or blue: height = 380mm, width = 254mm, thickness = 57-77mm, spacing = 77mm.

5.12.1.7 Windows. There is no limit on the number or design of collision, telltale, or spreader tip windows on the mainsail or genoas.

5.12.2 Mainsail

5.12.2.1 Minimum cloth weight is 6.25 oz. The mainsail minimum bag weight (without battens) shall be not less than 13.6 kilos (30 US pounds).

Bravo!

Thanks Charlie,
Thanks go to you and others that have pulled this all together. I look forward to the final vote.
No complaints here but a couple of questions/comments;
1. The bag weight seems a bit heavy based on what I my old sails weighed in. I will admit I wasn't very scientific given I stepped on a scale with the sail in my hands. Regardless, just curious how the final bag wieght was determined
2. Also, I note that the date of implementation is moved out from Sept 2012 to May, 2013. Again, just curious as to the thought process

Russ,

The weight is based on a sampling of class legal mainsails that were weighed from multiple sailimakers, with the lightest recorded at 30.5 pounds and heaviest at 36 pounds. This provides some margin of error.

The phase in date is intended to allow those who have recently purchased mains to make sure they do not feel obligated to go out and buy a new mainsail.

My recollection is that the changes in sailcloth have gone into effect three years after they were inacted. This was to allow those of us who bought new sails this year to get at least some use out of them before they become obsolete.

In any event even though it seems a fait acompli, I remain opposed to this change. Adding to the cost of racing these boats is not the way to build one design fleets, particlarly with the state of the economy.

Tom Watson

it may put one's mind at ease to know that Dacron will continue to be legal & competitive, should the new rule be approved

I am pleased that the BOG will change the mainsail materials but the weight restriction of 30# is unsatisfactory. A tape sail will weigh much less and THAT is the whole point of using them. Performance. If as some say there is no real benefit to the light sails then what is the problem with the light materisls. I want to be competitive in PHRF. that is where I sail. I am still buying my next main as LPT Mylar around 25# worth , less if it happens that way.

Those that read this forum know well what my postion is on changing main sail material. I'm on my third string mainsail and too, I've spent some amount of time researching the string sail as part of my background for my comments.

Obviously I'm pleased that there is some movement and I am hopeful that a change will be voted in.

That said, I must admit my deep disappointment with
1. the way the rule is written in regard to sail weight
2. the response to my question about how weight was determined; (The weight is based on a sampling of class legal mainsails that were weighed from multiple sailimakers, with the lightest recorded at 30.5 pounds and heaviest at 36 pounds. This provides some margin of error.)


One has to wonder if the proposed rule is written with the intent that no one would ever buy a string sail that meets class specs, or, there is just total disregard for facts.
I currently have three "string" mains. Two have been weighed and neither weighs 30lbs. Neither of the two that I weighed was built as a "cheater" main with the intent of taking weight out, as I was not concerned with class rules when I bought the sails.

Bottom line, string sails weigh less than Dacron, period. If you are not going to take that into account, if you are not going to allow sailmakers to build string sails of sensible design, unless there is a hidden agenda then why waste your time and the Association's time?

Here's my challenge - contact 3 or 4 sailmakers and ask them what a quality String mainsail should wiegh for a J/30, not what a dacron main weighs.

the intent of bagweight is obviously to prevent cuben fibre - and any other future fibre unknown at present, but similarly extremely light. the intent is to allow (A VOTE ON) modern composite mainsails using current technology. Did anybody WEIGH IN with a mainsail weight that was less than 30# until this minute? It might have been helpful to have the answer at the time the question was posed. Sailmakers were contacted (this was documented here on the forum), and they did not have this info. They can take the order, build the sail, and then weight it.

Conumdrum, should this proposal pass, are you going to come to the North Americans? Russ?

Read my comments in the thread about Dacron Mains. It was discussed there. I gave weights of my sails and gave a recommended weight for a string sail (from a sail maker!)

If a rule is passed that makes sense yes (I've already committed). If there is a rule passed with a 30# bag weight (which is senseless) NO!

Please forgive my criptic responses yesterday, I was running out the door to do a race (not on Wildcat, she's in the hospital undergoing surgery to fix her wounds)
To Dell;
In the thread on Dacron mains, page 11, my note dated 2-23-11 offered a proposed verbiage for rules change - I left the sail weight blank but asked for input.
Please read my note on 2-28-11 (page 12). Please read J Bro's note from 3-1-11 (pg 12). And agian, my note dated 3-9-11 (pg.13). My note dated 3-17-11 on pg 14 specifically addresses the weights of my string sails. Notes on 3-22, 3-23 and 3-28-11 (all on page 14) specifically address my dialog with sailmakers regarding sail wieght.

For reference, I spoke to the Doyle sailmaker in Eastern, Mi. I spoke to the UK sailmaker on the west side of Michigan (sorry I don't remember his name) and, I spoke with my sailmaker (Dieball Sails, in Toledo).

I hope this helps.

Hello Dell:

Only racing the J for two years I find the Dacron main refreshing. It may be a few pounds more than a string sail, but I love the durability. My 4 year old North has been through hell and still has great shape, a 3DL or any load path would be junk by now. The shape of a "wing" has not changed in a thousand years. I love Dacron

Sincerely
Eric Jones
Rifiki

What is all this obsession with 3DL STRING...

KEVLAR!

Seems to me that the 30 lbs bag weight is overly restrictive and does not serve to make the boat more competitive in PHRF fleets (which I presume is the motivation for the change). I'd remove the restriction.

Have fun with your string mainsails boys. I have seen too many of them delaminate. I am using an old Dacron for rum racing and it STILL has a good shape, and it is very fast. Fancy cloth won't replace using the basic main controls correctly.

I also vote for "no restriction"

For those who are posting opinions on changes to the class rules... Thank you for making your sentiments known.

I encourage each person who has an opinion to contact their district governor to make sure your opinions are properly represented when the Board of Governor's vote on a proposed rule change. The points of contact for district governors are available using the menu at the top. Mouse over "Class", then click on "Board of Governors".

You can lobby your fleet captain in your District forum, but some postings elsewhere are relevant to all. I’ll start with this :
Based on the complaints cropping up here, apparently not.

The proposed rule does not prohibit Cuben Fiber, carbon, or anything else sailmakers may dream up including North’s 3Di. These materials are lighter, stretch less, and usually more expensive.

It also does not prohibit excessive reinforcement, heavy footlines, boltropes, or fittings intended to increase the weight of the sail. Depending on local PHRF restrictions, one could use an underweight mainsail for handicap, and then fill a Velcro pocket near the tack with corrector weight in order to meet the proposed class ‘bag weight’.

I presume the bag weight is intended to control costs by discouraging class members from purchasing expensive lightweight sails that may provide a marginal increase in performance. That is consistent with my view that the proposal itself is still not cost effective for one-design.

Next up same source:
This may refer to Bob Rude who sailed one J/30 NA, in 2000 when it was in nearby Barrington, RI and as noted enjoys PHRF:
Since the class currently has no restriction on Pentex® Bob might be surprised to find out both of his mainsails are class legal. Could this refer to Rhapsody's Vectron 'cruising' sail ?

Note my Vectron main is not class legal per the current class rules due to the fabric. It is a weave, not a laminate and looks very much like Dacron. The bag weight is 36 pounds. When I had the sail made I did so with the intention of looking at a cost competitive Dacron alternative that would last longer. It is class legal in all respects except for the fabric.

I also verified with the SNE class that it was acceptable to use the sail for local OD events before the purchase as I wanted to take data on aging. It was agreed this was ok. I believe that anyone who has raced against this sail will say the sail is equally competitive with Dacron, and offers no competitive advantage (my opinion - others would have to comment). It was built with slugs and is used every day, flaked over the boom. Overall I am happy with the shape and aging so far. I have actually reefed this sail for some distance deliveries when the boat was delivered to Cedar Point and Marblehead.

One more for today:
The way I heard it, somebody asked Johnstone, 'If J/Boats were building a J/30 today would it have Kevlar sails?’ to which he said yes. Nobody asked how much this new J/30 would cost, but I’d say $150-200K while old J/30s currently sell for $5-25K.

The J/109 and J/111 do allow carbon and Kevlar, but J/Boats might consider that their most successful one-design classes remain the J/22, J/24, J/80, J/30 & J/105 all using Dacron mainsails.

Bob,

Weren't you on the last BOG call? That is what I'm referring to visavis RJ; a specific question, a specific response.

In fact, Pentex is currently a legal mainsail cloth, in contradiction of my earlier claim!

The best place to database the approximate weight of J/30 sails would be the class. At this stage the information is all over the map. There are however some dacron mains and some composite mains which are of a comparable weight as reported on the forums.

The bagweight idea is from RJ by the way. This is what the new J/111 class has adopted; perhaps other classes have used this language as well. Velcro lead cheater pockets? A class should be able to easily take care of that one. The intent is indeed to prevent an ultralight sail such as cuben fibre, or perhaps a second generation of such.

Dell - Pentex is allowable under the current rules:

5.12.1.2 Mainsail shall be manufactured from woven ply polyethylene terephthalate (“PET”),such as Dacron®,or woven ply polyethylene naphthalate (“PEN”),such as Pentex®. The spinnaker shall be manufactured from woven ply nylon.

Just a few comments and concerns.

Why are we considering a change in mainsail material? Will it indeed get more J30 to race One Design? Will it make the J30s sailing in PHRF fleet more competitive? I don't think so.

I have sailed in my share of NAs. I have purchased new sails for every two or three NAs. I keep this sails for major regattas, such as the NAs, NOOD's and major one design regatta. I will continue to do so whether the sails are Dacron or high tech. Most of my club racing is PHRF. Even though Cedar Point's Division 2 is made up mostly of J30 in a one design configuration. We always are competitive, even against the non J30s in the fleet with high tech sails This is with '06 one design sails.

I look at this propose change as just a added expense. Maybe an additional $1.800. Unfortunately, I most likely will not sail in another NAs until it returns to RI in 2013. Even if the change is approved I may still purchase a Dacron main.

BTW, Didn't Circus from Chicago win Key West Race Week a few years ago with a Dacron main in one design configuration?

The bag weight issue will also need to be resolved. I'm not in favor of a bag weight. If the purpose is to keep material like Cuben Fiber out. Then why not just ban it!

I have asked the LIS J30 fleet to send their opinion to me about the proposed change. I will consider this when it becomes time to vote on Sept. 15th

John McArthur, LIS Fleet Governor, Past J30 Class co-president.

Based on comments on the forum and private polling here are my numbers with one week remaining before the vote on the proposed change in mainsail material. By my count, if all attend the meeting, there are 17 votes to be cast by the Officers, District Governors, At-Large Members, and J/Boats representative.

Members (% of members), Boats (% boats)

In favor (3):
Pacific Northwest -- 6 (8%), 52 (11%)
Eastern Great Lakes -- 6 (8%), 36 (8%)
Southern New England -- 6 (8%), 35 (8%)
Total Yes -- 18 (27%), 123 (35%)

Opposed (4):
Chesapeake -- 21 (28%), 61 (13%)
Long Island Sound -- 9 (12%), 57 (12%)
Northern New England -- 6 (8%), 50 (11%)
Gulf Coast -- 6 (8%), 48 (10%)
Total No -- 42 (47%), 216 (41%)

Unknown (4):
Western Great Lakes -- 5 (7%), 33 (7%)
Southeast -- 3 (4%), 14 (3%)
Carolina's -- 3 (4%), 7 (2%)
California -- 2 (3%), 25 (5%)
Total ? -- 13 (17%), 79 (24%)

Other -- 0 (0%), 29 (6%)
International -- 2 (3%), 17 (4%)

Total -- 75 (100%), 464 (100%)

Good Afternoon,

After the last BOG meeting I polled the members of the Gulf Coast fleet. These are the active boat owners that we can count on to race during the year.

The numbers are as follows; eigtht out of nine are opposed to changing the class rule on the mainsail material. The main reason is cost to performance ratio.

The meeting will get lively.

Ken
Gov. Gulf Coast Fleet

The proposed change voted on at the board of governors meeting held 15 Sept 2011 was not approved. Details of the BOG meeting and vote will be provided when the minutes of the meeting are posted.

in a quick discussion with Mr.J at the Newport boat show this weekend, he said he maintains hands off class discussions on sail material, BUT he was fully aware that phrf racers have to go high tech mains to compete against fleets where high tech is the norm.

His favorite play boat appears to be the J80, but where he races it it's phrf... and he is going high tech on his main next summer.

It is unfortunate we can't come up with some sort of compromise where the different boat materials can be used in a NA race. With the J30 vs J30 ... it's all about crew training/and tactics first.

Might you suggest a compromise Capt Vic?

Would it look like:

"J/30 OD mains are dacron. J/30 handicap mains are open/composite."

I thought we just put that issue to bed twice and for all so I'm not going to be the one to suggest that we put this out for discussion. But it crossed my mind that this might make sense on some ridiculous level.

no ... that's not the idea ... the idea is to get more J30s at an NA other than 4 locations in the country.

Try this one:
Six races W/L Dacron on Fri./Sat.
One race "round the Island" whatever on Sunday.

or reverse with a round the island on Fri and W/L the rest of the regatta.

Or Try this one:
Two starts: class A and class B and two different first places with a match race of the two 1sts.

with the first NA of this kind up here in Narragansett Bay.

we have so many rules and structures facing a slowly diminishing fleet ... it would be good to be able to encompass more of the boats.

Phrf remains the dominant racing mode for j30s in most of the country. and participating in one or two OD races a season vs a dozen phrf races is the norm.

AND AS of YET NO ONE has really proven that the main sail material really makes a significant difference one on one.

or is there someone who has actually tested it out there?

The local fleets have the ability to modify class rules if desired for their events If a given fleet elected to approve alternate materials they may perhaps in doing so it will allow for a better evaluation of Dacron vs plastic for both performance and life

The lack of hard data on performance vs cost to purchase vs life expectancy was key in the vote that was made

Hey Bill-

When will the minutes be posted? Or, did I just miss them?

Thanks, Jeff

Jeff - Minutes will be posted next week after the BOG reviews what I wrote up for accuracy.

Gents,
It's time to move on, the Association has decided. I'll do my best to quit being a dh about the sail.
Bottom line, I still want to race One Design. But, I'm still going to race PHRF agressively and maintain my high tech sail inventory too since that will be the majority of my sailing.
So... and I ask this seriously, what are my options for a "cost effective" way to get a competitive "white - ugh" main.
Vic - want to team up and go halfsees on a new main for NO and the next on after that? I'll drive one, you drive the next.
I probalby shouldn't hold out any hope of Bob buying me one? (alright that was ajoke)

Might want to talk with Zephyr. They might have a gorgeous main just laying around.

I hope i didn't give anyone the impression I would ever buy a 3DL main ... duh ... if it is like my last 3DL genny, I wouldn't get one year out of it.

But the nice thing about a high tech main is that you can see when it falls apart and looses shape. My favorite main is 7.8 oz dacron and i don't think that one is ever going to stretch out, and if it did I don't think I would be able to tell for a couple of years. Full battons, two reefs ... go anywhere anytime.

No, I am a died in the wool dacron main guy ... tied into heavy stainless steel tides marine slides, heavy batten pockets etc.

I wasn't planning on sailing up to NO although it would be a straight shot NNW. I have yet to see any video out of NO that would raise my pulse from it's medically controlled state.

do they get waves on that lake? it's got to be like Bristol.

My second Dacron 7.2 oz main North continues to dick around with trying to solve an inverted batten problem in light air. I hate light air.

Don’t beat up on the new guy, but has the association ever considered the one design sail program that the J/44 association uses/used (not sure if they still do it)? It could be a good compromise to the Main sail issue at hand as well as promote future one design sailing for the association.

Here’s the Deal: The association purchases a pre determined amount of Class Legal Mains (start small and grow with interest/success). The Mains are to be used for 2-3 years and then they can be sold back to the general membership as excellent cruising or Beer Can racing Mains. The program then goes full circle. The mains initially benefit the racing members and then will eventually benefit the non racing members when they are sold back. The Mains can be utilized at sanctioned one design events for those boats that do not have a Dacron Main (first dibs) or for those boats that don’t necessarily have a racing quality main. This would promote participation in the class at both ends of the racing spectrum (Those that don’t use Dacron and those that don’t race because of the condition of their Main). It’s a pretty cool concept and a reasonable compromise.

I know the initial push back will be the cost for putting the program in place. Those are the details that need to be worked out. I personally would not mind investing in a program that promotes growth as this one could. Bottom line, if this idea is dead on arrival due to cost, then cheers to the BOG for making the right decision this past week.

Best wishes,

Back when most of my sailing was on LI Sound I was always impressed with how a large, expensive, one-design like the J/44 was able to maintain their core of racers. The owners chose to hold down costs and make the boats as alike as possible in their class events and championship by having the class maintain and manage the sail inventory. Worked for them but I don't know that they have survived the last economic downturn. The Windcheck article is from four years ago and there's nothing on j44.org.

In order to have one design club racing in your local fleet everyone is going to need a set of class sails. How that's provided is up to those involved. Our fleet has considered that the one sail of each type per year allowed in our Class rules may be overkill.

If you want to make it easy for anyone to borrow a boat and get a chance to sail a regatta or two each year one-design while racing PHRF back home this is one way to do it.

Report of the death of the J/44 Class was premature--nine J/44s sailed the 2011 American Yacht Club Fall Regatta in Rye, NY. Better turnout than more recent designs in their size range J/109 (5), Swan 42 (6), Beneteau First 36.7 (7) and J/122 (5 in IRC) , though not quite up to the level of J/105 (15) and J/80 (12).