Discussions on everything about the J/30 Sailboat!
With your one stop source
The J/30 Marketplace
Join or Renew
Class Membership
Search

April
M T W T F S S
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
8 9 10 11 12 13 14
15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24 25 26 27 28
29 30
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Newest Members
LLBoat, zharv, Corey, Suzie, SSA-BlueJ
1018 Registered Users
Crew Manager Boat Websites

Boat Website subscriptions with
Crew Scheduling & Notifications

Created by former J/30 Rhapsody owner

J/30 Social Network
Popular Topics(Views)
978,305 Dacron Main
163,315 Ananda's Refit
Forum Statistics
Forums28
Topics3,984
Posts19,069
Members1,019
Most Online238
Feb 9th, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3
Re: Mast Step Postion measuring [Re: 311 Temptation] #12869
01/14/12 09:08 AM
01/14/12 09:08 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,234
Newport and Naples
Cap'n Vic Offline
Senior Member
Cap'n Vic  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,234
Newport and Naples
I don't understand the point about better performance downwind ... assuming that we always use spinnaker downwind?

the difference is at the most 3 in. at the fractional ... or are we referring to a straighter mast with minimum bend?

I am estimating that the angle range of the mast -- controlled by the movement of the mast step set -- is ~2 degrees.

Re: Mast Step Postion measuring [Re: Cap'n Vic] #12870
01/14/12 11:36 AM
01/14/12 11:36 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,669
Portsmouth, RI
Rhapsody #348 Offline
Past J/30 Class President
Rhapsody #348  Offline
Past J/30 Class President
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,669
Portsmouth, RI
Vic - I believe the downwind comment is related to where the effective center of effort is based on the position of the mast and forces on the boat.

Re: Mast Step Postion measuring [Re: Tom Olsen] #12878
01/16/12 06:01 PM
01/16/12 06:01 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 80
Melbourne, FL
sailon Offline
Senior Member
sailon  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 80
Melbourne, FL
WOW. I have been reading the comments on rig tension and I am absolutely amazed. I am sailing with 1300 on the uppers and 1100 on the lowers as my base setting, and the boat is FAST. The J-30 has the identical problems that the J-24 has. It is underpowered, with an undersized keel. The goal for upwind performance has is to power up the rig for light to moderate air by inducing a large amount of head stay sag. You know that the shroud settings are correct when the leeward shrouds are just kissing slackness. At my settings, my leewards rarely slacken, even in 20+ knots. So what to do if the main looks funny? That is controlled by the ratio between the lower and upper shrouds. If you have a large amount of curve in the main luff, you will want a more prebend in the mast, therefore the difference between the upper tensions and the lowers will be greater. If the main has less luff curve, the ratio will be closer, pulling the spar straight. The position of the mast butt is set to provide the static mast bend that the sailmaker recommends, such that application of backstay and main sheet tension do not invert the mainsail.

If you have sailed a fractional rigged boat with running back stays such as a Star boat, you can see the relationship between our shrouds on the J-30 to runners on a Star. The lowers do the same function as the check stays, ie. straighten up the mast and add headstay tension by countering the tension applied by the upper shrouds. This enables the balance between draft depth in the head sail established by headstay sag, vs. flattness of the mainsail. Sailing side by side with a tuning partner and changing rig settings is a good way to establish base shroud settings.

Re: Mast Set Up/Rig Tension [Re: Tom Olsen] #12912
01/20/12 02:03 PM
01/20/12 02:03 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 678
Maryland, USA
Bob Rutsch Offline
Governor at Large
Bob Rutsch  Offline
Governor at Large
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 678
Maryland, USA
As indicated in the previous post, shroud tension influences rake, mast prebend and headstay sag. Likewise for fixed backstay tension, but in light to moderate conditions it's best to adjust the turnbuckles so the block rises to the top of the split backstay allowing you to depower using the adjustable backstay.

Maximum rake with the mast step forward gives you just a touch of weather helm in light to moderate conditions, providing some lift from the rudder. It does depend on having enough weight on the rail to maintain a reasonable angle of heel. If your crew is underweight and the boat is heeling over too much you don't need more weather helm.

You don't want so much weather helm that you are dragging your rudder through the water upwind. It may be the modified rudder, but I also wouldn't want to have 'no hands' like the picture in the rules thread.

Regardless of where the mast step is set, I think an excessively saggy headstay also hurts pointing. Since shroud tension is so much higher than headstay tension I'd theorize that adding a few turns isn't going to reduce mast rake. As wind speed increases and you begin to heel more, you can depower by adding turns to the shrouds. Since you don't need more weather helm why not maintain the same mast rake by adding turns to the headstay?

Re: Mast Set Up/Rig Tension [Re: Tom Olsen] #12929
01/23/12 02:46 PM
01/23/12 02:46 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 80
Melbourne, FL
sailon Offline
Senior Member
sailon  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 80
Melbourne, FL
Not quite. Headstay sag will result in increased draft in the sail. This helps provide the power that the boat needs. A saggy headstay actually pulls the mast forward. Think about the geometry. If I add sag to a line, the points at the end must come closer together, resulting in the top of the mast coming forward. Pointing ability results from the angle that the leading edge of the sail makes to the apparent wind. If the halyard tension is loose, the draft is further back, resulting in a higher pointing angle in light air. This is why many of the top J-24's have ugly scallops along the leading edge. As the breeze comes up and the sail stretches a bit, we tighten the luff of the sail via halyard tension. We also tighten the shrouds, tightening the headstay, and flattening the sail since the headstay sag is less. BTW, the large amount of sag I was referring to in my earlier post is approximately 6 inches in the 24, and I am approximating between 8 to 10 is about right in the 30.

Light air - Deep Draft in Genoa, max headstay sag, loose genoa halyard tension
Medium air - Less draft in Genoa via tighter headstay and less headstay sag, start to tighten halyard. Don't forget that headstay tension also is a result of main sheet tension. As the breeze comes up and you tighten the main leech, you are also tightening the headstay.
Heavy air, tighten shrouds if not done already, tighter headstay, tighter halyard tension.

Re: Mast Set Up/Rig Tension [Re: sailon] #12932
01/23/12 05:20 PM
01/23/12 05:20 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 678
Maryland, USA
Bob Rutsch Offline
Governor at Large
Bob Rutsch  Offline
Governor at Large
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 678
Maryland, USA
Originally Posted by sailon
A saggy headstay actually pulls the mast forward. Think about the geometry. If I add sag to a line, the points at the end must come closer together, resulting in the top of the mast coming forward.

I understand the geometry but disagree with the conclusion. Are you assuming the headstay is a straight line and pressure from the Genoa causes the headstay to sag and pull the mast forward?

At max headstay length the sag is built in. Grab the upper shroud at 1300 lbs and pull. Pretty tight. Now try the same thing with the loose and wobbly headstay. You can add quite a few turns before it will be tight.

Page 3 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  David Erwin 

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 51 guests, and 0 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Photos
2023 Clipper Cup - Conundrum USA32866
Windy Wednesday night
Hurricane Gulch San Pedro, CA
Truckin'
Endeavour (246) Sailing in Prince Edward Island
Recent Posts
Removing or Replacing Stuck Shaft
by jannickz. 04/14/24 10:40 PM
Main Halyard Sheaves
by Navy Dan. 04/12/24 09:33 PM
Light Air Racing
by jannickz. 04/10/24 02:15 AM
Hull # 229 Falcon parts for sale
by Sunrise. 03/16/24 08:26 PM
Adjusting Throttle & Transmission Controls
by Rhapsody #348. 03/10/24 08:25 AM
Engine Cover Steps
by David Erwin. 03/10/24 01:35 AM
Cushions
by Corey. 02/25/24 10:02 PM
Sold: #2 Dacron Jib
by Brent. 02/17/24 05:12 PM
J/30 Survey
by David Erwin. 02/16/24 06:43 PM
looking for j30 center table
by wilybilds. 02/16/24 04:49 PM
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1