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Asymmetrical Reacher #13485
05/02/12 09:44 AM
05/02/12 09:44 AM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 159
grand rapids, mi
311 Temptation Offline OP
Western Great Lakes District Governor
311 Temptation  Offline OP
Western Great Lakes District Governor
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 159
grand rapids, mi
I applied for my 2012 J/30 LMPHRF Certificate with a request to fly my old Melges 24 asymm reacher, or a newer version of same. I am cleared for flying an asymm in addition to, not instead of, the symmetrical kite (flown one at a time obviously). A Melges 24 reacher (not the M24 runner) is the cut that works well for reaching on the J/30. The measurements of this sail fit inside the size requirements for an asymm for our boat (in LMPHRF). In fact we are allowed an even larger reacher. Reading the J/30 OD rules for spinnaker sizing (5.12) it is apparently not an illegal sail in the Class either, because it fits inside the size parameters, which make no mention of symmetry.

An asymm (within given size parameters) is legal when you are rated for it, and when one is racing distance under PHRF, one is competing against other boats who are flying reaching sails, so this makes sense to me. This keeps the J/30 competitive and up to date.

I declared on my form that I have no intention or desire to fly the asymm around the buoys. This is strictly for distance racing. Be aware that my cert makes no such limitation of flying the A for distance only, so it would be LMPHRF legal to fly the A around the buoys too. My decision would be to not do so, and I would hope other J/30s would continue to buoy race in OD trim as well.

Since the LMPHRF application form specifically states that one may fly both a standard symm spinnaker as well as an alternate, asymmetrical spinnaker, this prompted me to investigate. This was a new detail on this years form. My cert came in yesterday. The asymm made no impact on my rating of 138 (One Design configuration).

There are a variety of ways to fly the asymm from boats (and you must specify on the LMPHRF form which technique you use to fly your A, and I have found the best way to fly mine is from the deck horn on a tackline which runs from the bow cleat to the jib horns. I ease the tackline as I set up to hoist, to approximately the point where my tack flies just higher than the bow pulpit, but touching. Lower than that and I rough up the bow lights. We find that this sail is easy to set, easy to fly & easy to douse. It fills a significant wind angle gap between jib reaching and the wind angle that is freed enough to fly the runner. It feels much faster than a "pole on the headstay" runner forced to reach or an eased and inefficient upwind sail. The boat loves it, the load is light, the tiller is easy. We've sailed shorthanded in this configuration with just my dear wife and two young children upwards of 20 knots (MAKING TIME!!) with no issues or worries. It's a fun & fast sail configuration.

For a time I tried to fly it from the pole in a low position. I was unhappy with this configuration. It was much harder to set up. It put massive loads on the rig at the pole track and the partners. The guys and twings were beyond maxed out trying to keep the pole off the stay. Flying it from the horns relieved all that nasty pressure, the boats feels faster and lighter. The tiller tells the difference too. I like to use buzz sheets because they are kind of stretchy and deal with puffs with a slight depower help. I don't jibe, I don't set up to jibe. It's a reacher. One sheet.

For an excellent example of the Melges 24 reacher cut asymmetrical spinnaker which works well on your J/30, see the North sails M24 Power Zone Reacher:

North Sails Melges 24 Power Zone Reacher

This sail is used on M24s for light & bumpy conditions when they reach up hotter to get rolling to get DW better than soak mode with the runner.

I invite your input. I welcome you to try one of these on your boat and see what you think. As the kids say, don't hate. Have you ever noticed how well the J/30 does in PHRF when the wind shifts, the course isn't reset properly, and it goes reachy? We kill it! Why not maximize that characteristic? Reaching seems to be the most typical point of sail in distance racing and other boats have loads of reaching weapons so we should as well.


Dell Todd
#311 Temptation
Holland MI
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Re: Asymmetrical Reacher [Re: 311 Temptation] #13486
05/02/12 01:34 PM
05/02/12 01:34 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,234
Newport and Naples
Cap'n Vic Offline
Senior Member
Cap'n Vic  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,234
Newport and Naples
which sail do the M24s use when they are doing W/L -- Reacher or Runner?

Makes a difference to me next Oct. when I am going to try this here in Naples where all the 24s do w/l.

Solid interpretation of the "OD" rules ... IMO ...as they say.

And by eliminating the pole ... we can cut two people off the crew!!!

Re: Asymmetrical Reacher [Re: 311 Temptation] #13487
05/02/12 01:56 PM
05/02/12 01:56 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 381
Squamish, British Columbia
NaturalHigh Offline
Senior Member
NaturalHigh  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 381
Squamish, British Columbia
This is relevant to my interest as I have been investigating the M24 kite as an asym to fly from our pole.

A couple questions however:

Looking at the hoist (ISP) and JSP for the Melges 24, it seems that flying it from the pole about 3 feet off the deck would maintain the design shape of the spinnaker and get the most projection. Did you try this?

Does the 2.5 feet of tackline without a pole for projection not allow the luff to rotate too far to leeward and aft in AWA forward of the beam?

Re: Asymmetrical Reacher [Re: 311 Temptation] #13488
05/02/12 03:14 PM
05/02/12 03:14 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 83
Waukegan, IL
jhoskins Offline
Senior Member
jhoskins  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 83
Waukegan, IL
I raced PHRF with an A3 and symmetrical last year and no change in my PHRF. It works good though a small TWA. Also I find it faster on the pole, but yes you end up with 5 lines. I have my tackline rigged forward of the bow off the stem fitting that makes for easier sets/douses and gybes, then I switch it to the pole. Heavy air I can just stay on the tackline. Its is also a good heavy air sail, as it is a smaller/flatter/heavier chute.

I started playing with a M24 (the runner) chute as well before I got the A3. The M24 chute is bit small (I think about 60 sq feet smaller), but works. Problem is you cant reach up enough with it to fill the reaching gap. Mayber the M24 reacher would work.


John
Madcap 358
Re: Asymmetrical Reacher [Re: 311 Temptation] #13489
05/02/12 03:37 PM
05/02/12 03:37 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 678
Maryland, USA
Bob Rutsch Offline
Governor at Large
Bob Rutsch  Offline
Governor at Large
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 678
Maryland, USA
J/30 CR 5.12.6.2 spinnaker maximum length of the leeches is 10.515 m and half width is 3429 mm.

Melges 24 CR, G.5.3 asymmetric spinnaker min/max: Luff 11285/11585 mm and leech 10000/11078 mm with half width max 5860mm (no min).

So the M24 leech might fit, but the luff minimum is 770 longer than the J/30 maximum leech. So how does that measure? Also half width 2.4+ m shorter than max? I'm skeptical that any M24 would use one of those.

Re: Asymmetrical Reacher [Re: 311 Temptation] #13490
05/02/12 04:08 PM
05/02/12 04:08 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 83
Waukegan, IL
jhoskins Offline
Senior Member
jhoskins  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 83
Waukegan, IL
It was awhile ago that I played with a borrowed M24 runner. And now I seem to remember the leach a bit long, but I had the pole clamped to the deck. I wasnt ideal but gave me an idea of how it would work from a friends old sail.

My North 3A works great and fits. Its not a sail I use that often however. It is smaller and good for reaching in a distance race.

Details:
ASYMM REACHER (3A) AIRX 700 +
540 sq.ft; ALl White; 55-95 AWA.
CLOTH 0.75OZ AIRX700


John
Madcap 358
Re: Asymmetrical Reacher [Re: 311 Temptation] #13492
05/02/12 08:45 PM
05/02/12 08:45 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 159
grand rapids, mi
311 Temptation Offline OP
Western Great Lakes District Governor
311 Temptation  Offline OP
Western Great Lakes District Governor
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 159
grand rapids, mi
Natural High yes I flew it from the pole for quite a while and it was decent but it loaded the gear beyond what it seemed was a good idea.

Bob, did you get your numbers from the classmax Melges 24 spinnaker or from the North Power Zone Reacher I referenced?


Dell Todd
#311 Temptation
Holland MI
Re: Asymmetrical Reacher [Re: 311 Temptation] #13497
05/03/12 11:14 AM
05/03/12 11:14 AM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 678
Maryland, USA
Bob Rutsch Offline
Governor at Large
Bob Rutsch  Offline
Governor at Large
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 678
Maryland, USA
North doesn't show dimensions for the current version of that sail here, PZ-2 Reacher Spinnaker, but you might be able to obtain them. Or just measure the sail you have.

The min/max numbers come from the ISAF Class Rules - Melges 24. Handy illustrated sail measurement guide on their class rules page. We could use something like that.

Re: Asymmetrical Reacher [Re: 311 Temptation] #13499
05/04/12 12:01 PM
05/04/12 12:01 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 159
grand rapids, mi
311 Temptation Offline OP
Western Great Lakes District Governor
311 Temptation  Offline OP
Western Great Lakes District Governor
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 159
grand rapids, mi
Bob, I'm confident of my numbers because I worked with a sailmaker to get accurate measurements for this particular sail (North PZR), which is not the same size as the classmax M24 runner.

Yes that handy guide is handy!


Dell Todd
#311 Temptation
Holland MI
Re: Asymmetrical Reacher [Re: Bob Rutsch] #13527
05/15/12 02:16 PM
05/15/12 02:16 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 159
grand rapids, mi
311 Temptation Offline OP
Western Great Lakes District Governor
311 Temptation  Offline OP
Western Great Lakes District Governor
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 159
grand rapids, mi
Originally Posted by Bob Rutsch
...
So the M24 leech might fit, but the luff minimum is 770 longer than the J/30 maximum leech. So how does that measure? Also half width 2.4+ m shorter than max? I'm skeptical that any M24 would use one of those.


Hi Bob,

I finally had time to address your question. In short, the asym measurements are handled differently than the sym. For the purposes of my LMPHRF cert, it's not necessary for the asym to fit within the sym "box." Perhaps that helps.




Dell Todd
#311 Temptation
Holland MI
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