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Re: DC Electrical Panel Replacement [Re: Rhapsody #348] #13986
09/13/12 11:01 AM
09/13/12 11:01 AM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 12
Miami, Florida
PaneltronicsWill Offline
Member
PaneltronicsWill  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 12
Miami, Florida
Hello all - I wanted to provide my contact information in the event that you will be moving forward with a Paneltronics solution for the Electrical Panel upgrades. In addition we will be at the IBEX show in Kentucky October 2-4 please, stop by and visit us at Booth# 1915 if you are attending.

William Montes
PANELTRONICS
Account Manager
1-800-367-2635 xt. 219
305-824-0805 fax
www.paneltronics.com

Best wishes for fair winds and pleasant sailing!

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Almost there: DC Electrical Panel Replacement [Re: PaneltronicsWill] #13997
09/19/12 08:33 AM
09/19/12 08:33 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,668
Portsmouth, RI
Rhapsody #348 Online content OP
Past J/30 Class President
Rhapsody #348  Online Content OP
Past J/30 Class President
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,668
Portsmouth, RI
I received an email from William Montes at Paneltronics with some good information. He indicated that the Model 2206 panel (11" wide x 8.25" tall with hinge) could be fitted with a digital multimeter so both voltage and current could be monitored using a single meter. Based on my review, this is just about exactly what we need with maximum flexibility to "customize" with an assortment of standard available breaker cuurents and over 3000 standard labels.

Paneltronics can supply this for under $600 each for a quantity of three, or under $660 with ability to monitor Bat 1, Bat 2 or Bus voltage. The under $600 price is for Bat 1 & Bat 2 voltage monitoring only.

Question for J/30 owners - who is interested in potentially purchasing a J/30 customized panel for under $600 or $660 per voltage monitoring option above? Send me an email, or reply here.

I created a list of comments / questions that he confirmed. William's comments are annotated in (blue)

1. The multimeter will handle both current and voltage. (This is correct.)
2. The current is monitored by installing a shunt on the negative side near the battery. I assume the proper shunt is supplied with the meter. (This is correct, Meter will be installed with appropriate shunt.)
3. The connection between the shunt and battery is made via a twisted pair to eliminate noise. (This is correct.)
4. The current displays in 0.1 Amp increments for -99.9 to +500 amp range. (This is correct.)
5. The multimeter has a menu that allows selection between current and voltage. For voltage, the selection of battery 1 or 2 is via the rocker switch, and must be wired back to the battery positive terminals. (This is correct and we could wire our current switch to accommodate this feature.)
Question - is it possible to make the rocker switch 3 position - Battery 1, DC Panel Bus, Battery 2 (label as Bat 1, DC Bus, Bat 2)? That would provide maximum flexibility with the Bat Bus connected on the load side of the 50amp breaker at the panel. (This request will require a modification but is feasible. The modification will consist of a different switch (3 position) and special wiring, there will be an added cost to this request. This solution will run you under $660.00 (Note price does not include J/30 logo which is still TBD))
6. There is a sleep mode on the meter for low power consumption that may be set manually, or a time out. This is very nice! (This is correct.)
7. We could develop the "standard" J/30 breaker sizes and labels, that people could update with their specific desires. Assuming people select standard available breaker sizes and labels you already have, is there any charge for that customizing? (As long as the labels requested are part of our standard label library (3,000 labels+) and the breaker amperages are within our capabilities there should be no cost for this type customization.)
8. I will make a cardboard mockup and simulate the hinge position to see how this fits on my boat. I will take pictures and post on the J/30 Forum. (Would like to know your feedback. Hinge Left or Right also an option if easier.)

Generic Model 2206 Panel shown below
[Linked Image]

Mockup: DC Electrical Panel Replacement [Re: Rhapsody #348] #14015
09/23/12 07:33 PM
09/23/12 07:33 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,668
Portsmouth, RI
Rhapsody #348 Online content OP
Past J/30 Class President
Rhapsody #348  Online Content OP
Past J/30 Class President
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,668
Portsmouth, RI
I created a full scale mockup using the Model 2206 panel dimensions and did some trial fits on Rhapsody. Here are some things I discovered.

1. The hinge is best placed on the bottom or right side. The existing harness will not rotate easily with a left side hinge. My personal preference is to put the hinge on the bottom as I think that will be easiest to do any maintenance work.
2. On the stock J/30 with no modifications, there is no problem fitting the panel. On Rhapsody where I mounted a 110VAC outlet, shore power breaker and 12VDC outlet, I'll probably need to move some of the items I mounted.
3. There is adequate clearance for the panel height so the Nav table slider molded edge will clear the bottom of the panel.

For Rhapsody, If this panel were used I would either take out the old wood panel and cut a new one, or use something like starboard over the existing wood panel and move items so the 2206 panel could fit.

Here is the mockup and some descriptions (click on pics for higher resolution):
2206 Panel with hinge on bottom showing left/right clearance.
[Linked Image]

2206 Panel showing hinge clearance on bottom so it clears the sliding nav table top.
[Linked Image]

2206 Panel showing hinge opened and existing cutout that will need to be expanded to accommodate expanded dimensions.
[Linked Image]

2206 Panel showing interference with other added items on Rhapsody.
[Linked Image]

Original Panel shown for reference
[Linked Image]

Attached Files
2206-fit-check.jpg [54.43 KBytes] - (4203 downloads)
2206-hinge-clearance.jpg [49.47 KBytes] - (4116 downloads)
2206-hinge-down.jpg [58.27 KBytes] - (4062 downloads)
2206-outlet-plate-trim.jpg [49.78 KBytes] - (4002 downloads)
Draft Specification: DC Electrical Panel Replacement [Re: Rhapsody #348] #14018
09/24/12 06:40 PM
09/24/12 06:40 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,668
Portsmouth, RI
Rhapsody #348 Online content OP
Past J/30 Class President
Rhapsody #348  Online Content OP
Past J/30 Class President
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,668
Portsmouth, RI
I have created a draft specification for the DC Electrical Panel Replacement. It is attached in the Word file and pasted as text below. Please provide comments and recommendations.

1.0 Introduction: This document provides the specifications and parameters for a DC distribution panel as a replacement for the original equipment supplied with the J/30 Sailboat. The replacement panel is intended to provide the necessary isolation and circuit protection for original J/30 load requirements, and provide additional circuits for equipment that owners may have installed. The replacement panel is also intended to provide measurement capability for voltage and current.

2.0 Background: Information provided by J/30 owners revealed at least two different types of DC panels were supplied throughout J/30 production between 1979 and 1986. Older style panels were manufactured by Lorco and contained twelve toggle switches and twelve 3AG panel mounted fuse sockets with screw style caps. The panel measured 8.5" wide by 8" high. Some newer boats used a similar panel that measured 10" high by 6.325" wide. Additionally, some J/30 owners reported having a DC voltmeter mounted near the battery with a selector switch to monitor either battery. Not all J/30s were equipped with this meter.

3.0 Reference Documents: The following documents referenced in this document shall apply to the extent referenced herein.

3.1 Underwriters Laboratory specification UL-1077 - Supplementary Protectors for Use in Electrical Equipment

3.2 American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) Standard E-11 — AC & DC Electrical Systems on Boats

4.0 Requirements: The requirements specified below shall be met for the replacement 12 volt DC electrical panel.

4.1 Electrical Requirements: The DC Panel shall utilize hydraulic/magnetic trip-free circuit breakers that meet the requirements of UL-1077 and ABYC 11.10.1.5.

4.1.1 Main Breaker: The DC Panel shall have a single 50 amp circuit breaker with a 3000 amp interrupt rating that isolates the branch breakers.

4.1.2 Branch Breakers: The DC Panel shall have twelve branch circuit breakers. The breakers shall be available in the following ratings and may be specified individually at the time of order: 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 40 or 50 amps.

4.1.3 Bus Bars: The DC Panel shall have separate tin plated DC Negative Bus and DC Grounding Bus bars. The DC Negative bus bar is intended to be the DC return path for all loads. The DC Grounding Bus is not intended to be the load path, but will be connected to the DC Negative Bus. The bus bars shall have sufficient capacity for attaching the return path for each DC branch and the ground for each DC branch.

4.1.4 Multimeter: The DC Panel shall have a single splash proof panel mounted DC digital multimeter with the following attributes:
• Displays current in 0.1 Amp increments for -99.9 to +500 amp range, 1.0 Amp increments for -100 to -500 amp range with current monitored by installing a shunt supplied with the DC Panel on the negative side near the battery. This shunt is connected to the meter via 16 AWG twisted pair to minimize noise. The shunt shall be sized to match the desired current range with the multimeter sensitivity.

• Accuracy +/-0.5% corresponding to +/-1 least digit of resolution

• Four digits composted of seven segment displays with decimal point available to the right of each digit. Digits sized at 9/16" tall.

• Illuminated indicators that display Voltage (V) or Current (A) modes.

• Displays voltage from 0 to 60 Volts in 0.01 Volt increments

• Input 8 to 50 VDC to power meter with a maximum power consumption of 1.0 watt and standby power consumption of less than or equal to 0.15 watts

• Provides separate voltage and current terminals with a menu that allows selection between current and voltage.

• Menu selectable high and low voltage with audio and visual alarms

• Three levels of display brightness with a programmable sleep mode to blank display for power conservation

4.1.5 Voltage Selector Switch: A three position switch shall be provided to select the DC voltage monitor point for the Multimeter. The points to be monitored include Battery 1, Battery 2 and DC Panel Bus. Connection to the DC Panel Bus shall be internal to the panel. Connection to the switch for Battery 1 and Battery 2 shall be via screw terminals using external 16 AWG wire fused near the battery and provided by the installer.

4.1.5: Panel Illumination: The panel shall have back lighting that is powered from the load side of the main breaker with the illumination load for all back lights less than 90 milliamps. The back lighting is intended to illuminate circuit breaker labels. LED indicators shall be provided next to each circuit breaker that illuminate when the respective breaker is closed.

4.2 Mechanical Requirements: The DC Panel shall be 11" wide, 8.25" high and extend no more than 3.5" behind the panel. The panel shall be fabricated from 0.125" corrosion resistant aluminum. All component mounting hardware and the panel mounting hardware shall be countersunk resulting in a flush surface.

4.2.1 Hinge: The panel shall be configured with a hinge that extends along the bottom edge of the panel, allowing the panel to swing down for service. The hinge shall be mounted with recessed hardware so the panel covers the hinge when closed. The hinge shall be recessed into the back side of the panel so the entire assembly may be mounted flush.

4.2.2 Finish: The panel shall be painted black with a two part polyurethane finish. A 0.125" white accent line shall be painted around the outer edge with radiused corners. White lettering shall be painted on the panel as follows:

• 12 Volts DC - Above left row of Circuit Breakers

• Battery 1, DC Bus, Battery 2 - adjacent to voltage selector switch and aligned to switch positions

• J/30 - using "Souvenir" truetype font with bold & italic attributes and 0.5" high letters. The logo shall be centered along the bottom section, interrupting the solid white line with a 0.25" gap on either side to separate from the white line.

4.2.3 Component locations: The DC Panel shall be configured with two columns of circuit breakers. The top left breaker shall be the main breaker. Below this shall be seven branch breakers. The right column shall have the multimeter and voltage selector switch mounted at the top. Below these components shall be five branch breakers.

4.2.4 Circuit Breaker Selection & Labels: Circuit breaker labels shall be replaceable polycarbonate material with black opaque background and translucent letters that permit the backlight to illuminate the text. The main breaker shall be labeled Main 50 AMPS. Branch breaker labels shall be selectable from standard supplier offerings for each order. Branch breakers may be specified at time of order per paragraph 4.1.2.

4.3 Wiring: The DC Panel shall be delivered with all internal panel connections wired. All external connections for supply, load, current sense and battery voltage sense shall have screw terminals to accommodate properly sized wire per ABYC E- 11.16.1.2.2 and connections per ABYC E-11.16.4.1.11 supplied by the installer.

Attached Files
Re: Draft Specification: DC Electrical Panel Replacement [Re: Rhapsody #348] #14033
09/29/12 12:05 PM
09/29/12 12:05 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 88
Belmont, MA
G
Georges Offline
Senior Member
Georges  Offline
Senior Member
G
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 88
Belmont, MA
Bill,
If I was to change my pannel I would go for it - but I spent a decent amount of time last year redoing my circuitry... I do not see investing in it in for the short term,

I love the multimeter proposal.

One question: what does the main branch breaker isolates/protect from?


-- Georges
Foot Loose #467 - CPYC - Winthrop
Re: DC Electrical Panel Replacement [Re: Rhapsody #348] #14039
10/01/12 08:44 PM
10/01/12 08:44 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,668
Portsmouth, RI
Rhapsody #348 Online content OP
Past J/30 Class President
Rhapsody #348  Online Content OP
Past J/30 Class President
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,668
Portsmouth, RI
Georges,

The main breaker is described in ABYC E-11. It also allows easy isolation of the branch circuits and multimeter at the panel.

11.12.1.6. Panelboards and Switchboards - A tripfree circuit breaker or a fuse shall be installed at the source of power for panelboards and switchboards, and shall not exceed 100 percent of the load capacity of that panel, or 100 percent of the current carrying capacity of the feeders.

EXCEPTION: The trip-free circuit breaker or fuse at the source of power may be rated at up to 150 percent of the conductor ampacity if there is a submain circuit breaker or fuse in the panelboard or switchboard that is rated at no more than 100 percent of the load capacity, or the feeder ampacity, whichever is less.

[Linked Image]

Attached Files
AYBC_E-11.pdf [1291.36 KBytes] - (1771 downloads)
AYBC E-11 Excerpt
fig16.jpg [44.67 KBytes] - (7309 downloads)
DC Panel Main Breaker
Re: DC Electrical Panel Replacement [Re: Rhapsody #348] #14041
10/02/12 01:00 AM
10/02/12 01:00 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 203
Oxford, MI
Conundrum Offline
Senior Member
Conundrum  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 203
Oxford, MI
I have been following this discussion with interest but I have no troubles now, and without a need I would not replace the panel for the breakers and meters.
Just so you know.

Don


Don King
Re: DC Electrical Panel Replacement [Re: Rhapsody #348] #14099
10/15/12 01:08 PM
10/15/12 01:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 12
Miami, Florida
PaneltronicsWill Offline
Member
PaneltronicsWill  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 12
Miami, Florida
General purpose video on adding a 120VAC panel (Panel# 9972313) with 30 amp Shore Main


Rev 1 Spec: DC Electrical Panel Replacement [Re: Rhapsody #348] #14164
10/30/12 11:18 PM
10/30/12 11:18 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,668
Portsmouth, RI
Rhapsody #348 Online content OP
Past J/30 Class President
Rhapsody #348  Online Content OP
Past J/30 Class President
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,668
Portsmouth, RI
The attached procurement specification has been reformatted and incorporates comments received. I am waiting for final comments and drawings from Paneltronics, then will obtain final review comments before considering the document final.

Edit: Fixed file that didn't upload properly

Attached Files
Last edited by Rhapsody #348; 10/31/12 05:14 PM. Reason: Fixed file
Re: DC Electrical Panel Replacement [Re: Rhapsody #348] #14173
11/01/12 06:49 PM
11/01/12 06:49 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,668
Portsmouth, RI
Rhapsody #348 Online content OP
Past J/30 Class President
Rhapsody #348  Online Content OP
Past J/30 Class President
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,668
Portsmouth, RI
I had a discussion with William Montes today about the voltage selector switch and the hinge. The switch will be a rotary type. The hinge dimensions have been specified so that mounting tolerances are specified between the panel and the mounting surface.

The specification has been updated to reflect the changes. See attached revision 2.

Attached Files
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