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Re: 0.5 oz Spinnaker [Re: Rhapsody #348] #15860
09/17/14 06:55 PM
09/17/14 06:55 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 42
Seattle, WA
gmo Offline
Senior Member
gmo  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 42
Seattle, WA
Quote: "No. The material used to make sails or spinnakers is not a factor considered by PHRF-NW."


Grady Morgan
Slingshot - Hull #112
Re: 0.5 oz Spinnaker [Re: Rhapsody #348] #15861
09/17/14 07:01 PM
09/17/14 07:01 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 42
Seattle, WA
gmo Offline
Senior Member
gmo  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 42
Seattle, WA
Originally Posted by Rhapsody #348

My comment is this is great for PHRF but doesn't make a bit of difference for OD if everyone is required to use the same sails. PHRF-NB does not penalize for sail cloth, only sail dimensions, thus racing this sail in PHRF is an advantage becuase there is better performance with no PHRF penalty. I am sensitive to the desire to keep OD costs at a minimum. Thus, if the 0.5 oz spinnaker were allowed in OD, everyone would feel the need to carry both a 0.5 and 0.75 ounce spinnaker, increasing the cost for OD. The class rules allow a backup spinnaker if the primary spinnaker is destroyed. My backup is an older 0.75 oz class spinnaker that is well used but serviceable. For the "arms war" reason, I would not be in favor of adding the 0.5 ounce spinnaker to the OD sail inventory.... but could see a rules change similar to something proposed below.


We bought a .5 OZ when I had slingshot, and it made a huge difference in the NW. It was necessary to stay competitive, so we had it and an older .75. So this rule that is supposed to control the costs for one design would actually increase the cost for us doing one design. Our .75 wouldn't be competitive against the newer ones of the guys who don't have a .5OZ, so we'd need to buy a new one to consider participating in a traveling j/30 regatta.

When we raced one design in the NW, we didn't enforce the sail material rules. We had people with string sail mains and lighter spinnakers, because that's what they used the rest of the year.


Grady Morgan
Slingshot - Hull #112
Re: 0.5 oz Spinnaker [Re: Casey] #15863
09/18/14 12:54 PM
09/18/14 12:54 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 80
Melbourne, FL
sailon Offline
Senior Member
sailon  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 80
Melbourne, FL
Folks, "the fact is," "it made a huge difference in the NW," ARE going to generate a review by the PHRF committee. Last I heard, the PHRF rule is based upon boat performance (I believe that is what the P stands for, isn't it?), NOT sailcloth, measurements, etc. Your non J-30 competitors will get wind of boats not in compliance with the OD rules, and could protest. Therefore, if the J-30 fleet becomes significantly faster due to a OD rule change, the ratings will be adjusted. Here is the text from PHRF SEF: ODR REGULATIONS
Boats racing will be governed
by the PHRF SEF rules contained with in this document.
Adjustments may be imposed if
deviations from the class rules are deemed by the Chief
Handicapper or Board of Handicappers to provide
an advantage to the vessel. Class
weight restrictions are exempt. I read this if a J-30 is sailing in light air with a non class spinnaker, his rating could be adjusted. If I were racing a Soverel 30 in PHRF against 5 J-30s, and the winner of the PHRF fleet was a J-30 with a ODR rating, and non class spinnaker, I would give serious consideration to a rating hearing. ODR means ODR, PERIOD. Now, does adding a .5 oz chute to the boat increase the enjoyment of it in light air? To me, that is the REAL question. If the fleet decides that it is more FUN to add the light chute, go for it, and ratings be dammed. Maybe a fleet discount could be arranged with a sail-maker.

Re: 0.5 oz Spinnaker [Re: Casey] #15864
09/18/14 01:10 PM
09/18/14 01:10 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,656
Portsmouth, RI
Rhapsody #348 Online content
Past J/30 Class President
Rhapsody #348  Online Content
Past J/30 Class President
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,656
Portsmouth, RI
Rather than work on opinions, I have emailed the PHRF Southeast Florida Chief Measurer and asked the following quoted below. I will post the reply I receive. I would like to ask folks in other PHRF districts to send a similar email to their PHRF rating committees and ask for a response.

Quote
The J/30 Class is discussing the possibility of making a 0.5 ounce spinnaker a one design sail under its class rules. Currently the class requires a 0.75 ounce spinnaker.

Would you please comment on whether PHRF-SEF would change the rating for the J/30 if the class allowed a 0.5 ounce spinnaker that is the same size as the class 0.75 ounce spinnaker? I can state that PHRF-NE and PHRF-LIS (YRALIS) have both indicated that there would be no change in the rating.

You may read the discussion on our J/30 Forum at this link:
http://j30.us/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/15844/0_5_oz_Spinnaker.html#Post15844

Re: 0.5 oz Spinnaker [Re: Casey] #15865
09/18/14 02:17 PM
09/18/14 02:17 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 80
Melbourne, FL
sailon Offline
Senior Member
sailon  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 80
Melbourne, FL
Remember how PHRF works. Again, P is for performance. Data is required to change handicaps. In the case of a change in sailcloth weight, a rating change will not happen unless race data justifies it, since no dimensions were changed. However, if race data shows that spinnaker cloth weight did change a boats performance, a committee will either change the rating of the boat that is using the illegal sail, or will change the ODR rating if the class adds the light chute. In my earlier example, would I win the protest? Maybe not, but the committee would hopefully start to track the performance of the boat using the light spinnaker, and bring it up at a future committee review. There is precedence here. Take a look at the rating credits / hits that some fleets are giving for sail cloth for headsails. In the Melbourne fleet, a Dacron only inventory is worth 6 seconds per mile. Even the IMS rating includes sail cloth credits. So, in theory, I could enter the PHRF championship with my J-30 ODR rating, use brand new Dacron sails, and everybody would have to give me 6 seconds per mile. Again I say choose the sails that make the boat most enjoyable, and forget about the ratings. Suggest all interested have a look at http://www.ussailing.org/racing/offshore-big-boats/phrf/

Re: 0.5 oz Spinnaker [Re: Casey] #15866
09/19/14 12:37 PM
09/19/14 12:37 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 454
Highland Park, NJ
Steve Buzbee Offline
Senior Member
Steve Buzbee  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 454
Highland Park, NJ
In theory, what Sailon is saying is correct. But in practice, it doesn't seem to work quite that way. As long as we can certify we are in full one design configuration, our PHRF rating is pretty much bulletproof because there is such a long history and the boats are all alike (this works against sailors who are underperforming, as they don't have much ability to appeal for a favorable rating). When the class has made adjustments to the one design rule (carbon pole,aramid headsail cloth, self tacking traveler, power assisted vangs for example) which add some performance, PHRF has never seen fit to adjust the rating for the entire class. My guess is that the same would be true for the addition of a .5 chute to the inventory-IF it is permitted by the one design rule.


Steve Buzbee
Blue Meanie J/30 #485
Re: 0.5 oz Spinnaker [Re: Casey] #15879
09/29/14 09:44 AM
09/29/14 09:44 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 493
Chicago, Il. USA
D. Bartley Offline
Governor at Large
D. Bartley  Offline
Governor at Large
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 493
Chicago, Il. USA
Sounds like the PHRF guys (of which I are one) are trying to get something for nothing. If PHRF is indeed based on performance, the current rating for J30 is correct, and a 1/2 oz. helps the performance of the boat, it would be fair if there were a rating adjustment.

Having said that, i don't believe Lake Michigan PHRF looks at materials, just that the size of a sail is class legal. So there would not likely be a change to a J/30s rating on Lake Michigan.


Dennis Bartley
Planxty, s/n 23994
hull 205
Re: 0.5 oz Spinnaker [Re: D. Bartley] #15942
11/03/14 06:58 PM
11/03/14 06:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 7
New Orleans, LA
Casey Offline OP
Forum Newbie
Casey  Offline OP
Forum Newbie
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 7
New Orleans, LA
I checked with the Gulf Coast PHRF committee and received this answer:

"Currently, the J-30 is not rated to ODR specs. The J-30 is rated as a standard PHRF boat, with a J pole, 155 gennoa, and no limits on spinnaker weight. We then give adjustments for 10% increase in spin pole (including larger spinnaker), and over 155% gennoa. We have the Net rating of 138, which is where we want it for the ODR version, except we allow .5 oz spinnakers."

So it doesn't look like there would be a change in the PHRF rating anytime soon. I appreciate the feedback and the discussion.

Re: 0.5 oz Spinnaker [Re: Casey] #15983
12/15/14 02:30 PM
12/15/14 02:30 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 381
Squamish, British Columbia
NaturalHigh Offline
Senior Member
NaturalHigh  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 381
Squamish, British Columbia
As far as I know, Both PHRF-BC and PHRF NW are not using a ODR for the J/30 but a standard base yacht rating with adjustments for sail size. In that case, sail material does not come in to play one bit.

I carry a 0.5 Oz spinnaker in PHRF; all they cared about was the size of the largest kite.

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