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Re: proposed changes for Spinnakers to allow for a 0.5 oz [Re: cstoddard] #16570
11/04/15 01:56 PM
11/04/15 01:56 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,656
Portsmouth, RI
Rhapsody #348 Offline
Past J/30 Class President
Rhapsody #348  Offline
Past J/30 Class President
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,656
Portsmouth, RI
Not that I have a dog in this hunt anymore since I sold Rhapsody but I am sympathetic to Russ's comments. I owned a 0.5 oz spinnaker that I used for PHRF because I could afford it and PHRF-NB did not penalize the OD rating due to cloth weight. All along I have been sensitive to those who did not want to spend the money for an extra sail, so did not want to force it, but would have been perfectly happy for the rule change if people wanted it.

One thing to consider to maintain a reduced cost for OD is to allow the 0.5 oz spinnaker in the sail inventory but take a slightly different approach for the NAs and Midwinters. Something like

"The 0.5 ounce spinnaker shall be allowed for all OD racing. The J/30 North American and Midwinter Championships shall only require the use of a 0.75 oz spinnaker, unless the race documents specifically authorize the 0.5 oz spinnaker."

This has the effect of making the 0.5 Oz spinnaker allowable for everything (including PHRF), but supports those who do not want to purchase an extra spinnaker for the NAs and Midwinters. The race documents for these events can add the 0.5 oz spinnaker based on polling the participants.

Re: proposed changes for Spinnakers to allow for a 0.5 oz [Re: cstoddard] #16572
11/04/15 07:21 PM
11/04/15 07:21 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 454
Highland Park, NJ
Steve Buzbee Offline
Senior Member
Steve Buzbee  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 454
Highland Park, NJ
Ah. I thought when you said you hardly ever use it, that meant it would be in usable condition. Before our local PHRF added restrictions, I briefly had a 1/2 oz chute and I loved it. It was perfect up to about 10 true and flew full in almost nothing.

It sucks racing PHRF watching other boats sail by with full chutes while we are hanging 3/4 ounce laundry! And for that matter-it sucks in one design when conditions are extra light and everyone hangs laundry and the race has to be abandoned or becomes a complete crap shoot.

Russ-if you had a new 3/4 this year, I suspect it will still be quite competitive for next year's NA regatta. So maybe just focus on buying the 1/2 oz for next season (if the rule change passes)? Unless my work picks up quite a bit, I am probably stuck with my 3 year old 3/4 for next season but will (hopefully) be able to pick up a 1/2 oz...


Steve Buzbee
Blue Meanie J/30 #485
Re: proposed changes for Spinnakers to allow for a 0.5 oz [Re: cstoddard] #16575
11/07/15 07:19 PM
11/07/15 07:19 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 6
Waterbury, CT
Carl Sherter Offline
Immediate Past President, Treasurer
Carl Sherter  Offline
Immediate Past President, Treasurer
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 6
Waterbury, CT
As one of the oldest owner and having done the most NA's I feel strongly that adding a 1/2 oz spin is a bad idea. It will add a minimum of 2500$ to a sail inventory. Our boats are getting old and we need new young blood to buy, fix up and race. We should keep the expenses to a minimum so these potential young owners can afford them. They already can't afford new sails yearly or even 1 sail a year. This was notable in the last few NA 's where I saw a lot of tired sails. If we all have 3/4 oz, we all will suffer the same.


Fat City
Re: proposed changes for Spinnakers to allow for a 0.5 oz [Re: Rhapsody #348] #16580
11/09/15 08:01 AM
11/09/15 08:01 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 135
Summit, NJ
Michael L Offline
Senior Member
Michael L  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 135
Summit, NJ
Excellent suggestion Bill. I completely endorse it.


Michael
Re: proposed changes for Spinnakers to allow for a 0.5 oz [Re: cstoddard] #16581
11/09/15 01:31 PM
11/09/15 01:31 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 454
Highland Park, NJ
Steve Buzbee Offline
Senior Member
Steve Buzbee  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 454
Highland Park, NJ
Hi Carl-my thinking is that the cost should (other than for the first year of the rule implementation) be exactly the same, since purchases are limited to one new chute per year (regardless of weight). And having two chutes availbale might even extend the usable life of both chutes, since the half would rarely be deployed in conditions where it would be under stress, and the 3/4 would get significantly less use and would not get in situations where it is hanging/chafing against rigging when wind is near 0...

As one who sailed with somewhat tired sails at my last NA's (and for the last three seasons) for financial reasons, I understand the concern over cost of upkeep. But I really think this shouldn't have much of an impact.


Steve Buzbee
Blue Meanie J/30 #485
Re: proposed changes for Spinnakers to allow for a 0.5 oz [Re: cstoddard] #16583
11/09/15 02:08 PM
11/09/15 02:08 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 392
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 392
Rockwood, MI, USA
Here's my thinking on the cost
In 2015 I bought a new 3/4 oz spin for the nationals.
I'll use it for at least one more national (2 year rotation)
In 2016 I would have to buy a new 1/2 oz. In 2017 a new 3/4 oz and in 2016 another new 1/2 oz., etc. If I go three years on the rotation, I still have to add one more sail to the inventory On a three year rotation net/net the cost is 2/3 of double.
Perhaps if you use "new math" the cost is the same. Hopefully someone can explain it to me

Re: proposed changes for Spinnakers to allow for a 0.5 oz [Re: cstoddard] #16584
11/09/15 02:10 PM
11/09/15 02:10 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 392
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 392
Rockwood, MI, USA
excuse the fat fingers - previous note should have read, and in 2018 (not 2016)

Re: proposed changes for Spinnakers to allow for a 0.5 oz [Re: cstoddard] #16585
11/09/15 02:25 PM
11/09/15 02:25 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 6
Waterbury, CT
Carl Sherter Offline
Immediate Past President, Treasurer
Carl Sherter  Offline
Immediate Past President, Treasurer
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 6
Waterbury, CT
The Governors especially have got to look at the goals of the class. It should be to grow the fleet with new young members. Part of J/70 success is cost. 3 sail limit. I'm with Russ on the math. I can certainly afford a sail but when big fleets are noticing big losses of participation, we MUST address this. 2 J/30's did not register for CPYC 1 design regatta because of cost. Smiles is using an old FAT CITY spin as backup.


Fat City
Re: proposed changes for Spinnakers to allow for a 0.5 oz [Re: cstoddard] #16586
11/09/15 03:24 PM
11/09/15 03:24 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 454
Highland Park, NJ
Steve Buzbee Offline
Senior Member
Steve Buzbee  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 454
Highland Park, NJ
I think the cost of ownership depends on a lot of variables for an aging class such as ours. Different boats have completely different sail inventory management strategies, so it is hard to compare precisely. For example, I don't use two sets of sails one for OD and one for PHRF, and I don't have a uniformly scheduled replacement protocol like Russ does. I buy whatever I can afford to buy each year shortly before the NA regatta, and then use those sails for all my racing activity until they wear out/lose shape-and then I replace them as seems warranted by condition and as I can afford to. So this coming year I am definitely replacing my three year old #1-but may try to survive with my three year old 3/4, and hopefully (if this change goes into effect and if I can afford it) pick up a 1/2 oz before the NA's in the fall.

I believe the only possible way to measure/assess the cost impact of a rule change such as this one is to assume that a class boat going all out (and without other-i.e. personal/financial-restrictions) would buy the maximum number of new sails permitted by the class rule. The class rule is designed to limit the MAXIMUM expenditure possible-and with this change that maximum expenditure per season would not change (except for the first year of implementation). No new math required.

Carl-did the 2 J/30's that didn't enter the CPYC OD regatta refrain from participating because boat maintenance is too expensive, or because regatta costs are too expensive? My general impression is that participation is down because the class is aging out/moving on-not because of upkeep costs such as sail purchasing (although general maintenance costs of the hull and deck clearly go up as these boats hit their senior years...)



Steve Buzbee
Blue Meanie J/30 #485
Re: proposed changes for Spinnakers to allow for a 0.5 oz [Re: cstoddard] #16587
11/09/15 03:52 PM
11/09/15 03:52 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 454
Highland Park, NJ
Steve Buzbee Offline
Senior Member
Steve Buzbee  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 454
Highland Park, NJ
PS-Bill, I think your idea has merit, but would make sail inventory management more difficult. Using me as an example-I hope to be able to "stretch" (pun intended) my 3/4 to last through next season by using the new 1/2 oz (if allowed) when possible. But if the NA organizing body decides to restrict the sail inventory to just the 3/4, I would be stuck using a four year old chute for all racing at the NA's, and would then have prioritized my sail purchasing (without realizing it) for PHRF.


Steve Buzbee
Blue Meanie J/30 #485
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