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Re: proposed changes for Spinnakers to allow for a 0.5 oz [Re: cstoddard] #16588
11/09/15 07:10 PM
11/09/15 07:10 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 6
Waterbury, CT
Carl Sherter Offline
Immediate Past President, Treasurer
Carl Sherter  Offline
Immediate Past President, Treasurer
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 6
Waterbury, CT
No matter how you divide up costs, we may be getting beyond what people want to spend or can afford. Participation in PHRF is so far down it is not worth sailing. If a few people come to the NA's with a whole inventory of new or near new sails, people with lesser means say the hell with trying. We got around pro boats with best amateur award for years to try to mitigate the PRO problem & encourage amateurs to have a goal. Rod Johnstone last year stated he was against changing our rules for sail inventory. He certainly knows how to grow a fleet & keep 1 together.


Fat City
Re: proposed changes for Spinnakers to allow for a 0.5 oz [Re: cstoddard] #16589
11/09/15 07:11 PM
11/09/15 07:11 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 6
Waterbury, CT
Carl Sherter Offline
Immediate Past President, Treasurer
Carl Sherter  Offline
Immediate Past President, Treasurer
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 6
Waterbury, CT
You can rebuild a boat yourself as Bill showed us all. BUT, you can't make sails


Fat City
Re: proposed changes for Spinnakers to allow for a 0.5 oz [Re: cstoddard] #16590
11/10/15 11:33 AM
11/10/15 11:33 AM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 454
Highland Park, NJ
Steve Buzbee Offline
Senior Member
Steve Buzbee  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 454
Highland Park, NJ
Again-I do not believe this rule change has any impact on cost of ownership except during the first year of implementation (and then only if an owner wants to have both chutes brand new).

Carl, I understand your arguments about broader cost issues-but I don't think there is much more that the class could do to limit costs. We already limit sail purchases to one set per year, and we still are not allowed to carry aramid mainsails. And about the J/70 class sail/cost limitations-they can buy as many sets of three sails as they want in a calendar year (my understanding is that the top boats buy a new set for every major regatta)and can carry as many pros as can fit-and the class is thriving because the level of competition is so high.

You are correct that if/when boats bring all new inventory and a pro to the NA's,there will be many boats that won't be able to compete at that level. But I don't think we can do much to address that problem unless we switch to an arrangement like the one used by the J/44 class, where the fleet buys full sets for the entire fleet on a regular schedule and sails are rotated between boats. But that only works for the 44's because they are all east coast based and have a pre-arranged one design event calendar.

I believe the "top amateur" trophy was dropped when fewer boats were bringing pros and the winning boat also was top amateur boat. Maybe we should bring it back?


Steve Buzbee
Blue Meanie J/30 #485
Re: proposed changes for Spinnakers to allow for a 0.5 oz [Re: Steve Buzbee] #16592
11/10/15 01:34 PM
11/10/15 01:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 186
Barrington, RI
cstoddard Offline OP
Senior Member
cstoddard  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 186
Barrington, RI
Ok so here are my thoughts as an Ex J30 owner
* After the 2008 N/A's I bought a 1/2 Oz to use for my PHRF tuesday night races which typically are in the 12 knot and down conditions. The though process was use the 1/2" and save the 3/4 for the big wind and for the N/A's which worked out well as I got 5 years out of the 3/4 oz

The half oz really does allow you to go deeper in the light air so if your area is mostly PHRF its a big help
I like the idea of setting up the class rules to allow for it so it doesn't hurt the guys who have issues with the local PHRF rules

As for the N/A's it really doesn't matter if everyone is sailing with a 3/4 oz as its going to be how new and crip (i.e. how much salt is on it) as to how deep you can push the boat

At any rate now I'm in an asym having to push big angles !
Charlie


Charlie Stoddard
Falcon #229
Re: proposed changes for Spinnakers to allow for a 0.5 oz [Re: cstoddard] #16593
11/10/15 02:00 PM
11/10/15 02:00 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 454
Highland Park, NJ
Steve Buzbee Offline
Senior Member
Steve Buzbee  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 454
Highland Park, NJ
I actually like the idea of having the 1/2 oz for one design as well. Races become complete crapshoots when the air goes very light and the only available sail is the 3/4. Having the 1/2 oz to go to would keep racing fairer (and more enjoyable)even in one design as the breeze drops...


Steve Buzbee
Blue Meanie J/30 #485
Re: proposed changes for Spinnakers to allow for a 0.5 oz [Re: cstoddard] #16597
11/11/15 12:06 PM
11/11/15 12:06 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 135
Summit, NJ
Michael L Offline
Senior Member
Michael L  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 135
Summit, NJ
By boat standards, J/30s are pretty cheap to buy. I would think that the majority of people buying them to race will spend most of their time handicap racing (PHRF in the U.S.) and therefore feel that the class should do what it can to make them as competitive in mixed fleets. Hence Bill's suggestion is a good one. When we meet as a Class for National Championships, we can set whatever restrictions we like (with a goal to increase fairness and participation).

Last edited by Michael L; 11/11/15 12:07 PM.

Michael
Re: proposed changes for Spinnakers to allow for a 0.5 oz [Re: cstoddard] #16598
11/11/15 12:43 PM
11/11/15 12:43 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 392
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 392
Rockwood, MI, USA
My view is that the Class ought to establish a one-design rule that is expected to be used in National and other 1 design events - not a rule change to satisfy one local PHRF area or to satisfy how an owner might sail the boat in a PHRF event. If you go down that path then how do you deal with some using a 1' shorter pole, a smaller spinnaker or a 155% jib - let alone a 1/2 oz spinnaker.
If a sailor wants to be competitive in PHRF, one can think about buying a composite main, an A sail, a number 2, a 1/2 oz kite, a 155% jib, cutting down the pole, buying a smaller 3/4 oz spinnaker, or some combination of the above. Yikes - wouldn't it be absurd to ask the class to change the rule so all these choices could be made?

If the class wants to make it easier for one design rules to benifit PHRF then change the rule on the main to allow composite mains - that way one doesn't have to buy two mains to sail both 1 design and PHRF (I'm not here to fight that fight any longer, just making a point of reference re the 1/2 oz kite)

The Tarten 10 one design rule includes only a working Jib, no overlapping head sail yet the PHRF racers go out a buy inventory. Similar situation to the J/30 1/2 oz kite.

Agian, in my view, we should be discussing how a 1/2 oz spinnaker can improve 1 design sailing not how it will help PHRF.

Re: proposed changes for Spinnakers to allow for a 0.5 oz [Re: cstoddard] #16599
11/11/15 03:07 PM
11/11/15 03:07 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 454
Highland Park, NJ
Steve Buzbee Offline
Senior Member
Steve Buzbee  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 454
Highland Park, NJ
Russ-if you look two posts up, I specifically address how the 1/2 oz. would improve one design racing.

As far as other possible PHRF changes you mention-many are permitted under one design since they would only serve to make a boat less competitive. If you want to sail with a smaller chute, jib and pole at a one design event, no one would stop you (and a #2 is already expressly allowed). And if you do so in PHRF, many regions would give you a rating boost. We've gone around and around on the aramid main issue-I believe the only real benefit of aramid is shape longevity, and the many adjustments that can be made to the main can compensate for a sail losing some shape (I'm currently racing with a three year old dacron main and speed seems pretty good when I get rig tune and settings right). The 1/2 oz. chute option offers a unique speed enhancement in light air that would improve one design competition in light stuff (see above) AND would enhance performance in PHRF-which in turn would keep the boat more competitive and therefore enhance resale/potentially help keep more boats actively racing. While it is true that this is a discussion regarding a one design rule change, this forum is for disussion of all issues around J/30 ownership-and enhancing PHRF performance for the boat is a perfectly valid aspect to be considered (in my opinion).

Finally-as I have mentioned earlier, in some PHRF districts (including ours where we have 6 active 30's racing) ANY deviation from one design configuration INCLUDING sail selection exposes us to a potential rating appeal/hit. Obviously that is not the case where you sail. I suspect if it were, you might see the value of this proposed rule change in a more positive light...



Steve Buzbee
Blue Meanie J/30 #485
Re: proposed changes for Spinnakers to allow for a 0.5 oz [Re: cstoddard] #16600
11/11/15 03:54 PM
11/11/15 03:54 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 454
Highland Park, NJ
Steve Buzbee Offline
Senior Member
Steve Buzbee  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 454
Highland Park, NJ
And Mike-I think if we implement the change allowing the 1/2 oz. and adopt the "Kneller clause", any regatta host would have to stipulate whether the 1/2 oz will be allowed to be carried WELL in advance (six months prior to racing?) so sail purchases could be planned/managed accordingly. Most boats schedule purchases to be timed to arrive for the NA's-it would suck if a boat decided to only buy a new 1/2 oz and live with an existing 3/4, only to find that they couldn't use the new sail at the last minute.


Steve Buzbee
Blue Meanie J/30 #485
Re: proposed changes for Spinnakers to allow for a 0.5 oz [Re: cstoddard] #16601
11/11/15 03:57 PM
11/11/15 03:57 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 14
Alexandria, VA USA
Tom Watson Offline
Member
Tom Watson  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 14
Alexandria, VA USA
Since this is really for those PHRF districts where they take a hit for not complying with the one design rule, why not change the rule to this instead.

Two additional spinnakers may be carried: a 0.5 oz spinnaker which may be used at owners discretion, but only for PHRF racing; a backup 0.75 oz may be carried, but only may be used if the primary .75 oz. spinnaker is damaged. The #2 is optional."

It would change the one design rules to allow the half ounce to be used for PHRF racing. It would not impact those of us fortunate enough to have one design competition.


tom watson
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