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Cabin Sole Rebuild, MaJic Carpet #17118
02/18/17 12:54 AM
02/18/17 12:54 AM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 218
Scappoose, OR
C
Coastie Offline OP
Senior Member
Coastie  Offline OP
Senior Member
C
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 218
Scappoose, OR
I thought it might be best to separate out this little bit of rebuild work from the main MaJic Carpet rebuild thread. When I was researching though the site I saw that many J30's have had their cabin sole pulled out to do some serious work and remove the vermiculite, but I didn't see anywhere how they were then rebuilt.

I have no idea if the way that I am doing it is the best or not, but my intent is just to show how I am going about it. This is very much a design build project and I am just working my way through each little bit. feel free to comment now before things start getting glued down.

First, when I pulled the original sole out, I more or less intentionally left a lip at the front that is about 1-1/2" wide. Back at the engine tub there was no lip left. So knowing the the Bubinga and Paduch that I milled is 7/8" thick I started by putting a small block on the lip the thickness of the new sole and stretched a string from there to the bottom of the engine tub. This string represents the top of the surface of the new sole. I also used the reference of the cut line on the sides of the old sole as it went vertical into benches. This line is not completely straight, all four corners of the sole are pulled up slightly and it is important to determine where the straight line of the main sole meets these pulled up corners. At the front these transitions are pretty obvious. That is not the case in the rear areas. You can see in the images where I have pulled the string lines to and this is where those transitions are in my boat. It is also important to note that the Port and Starboard sides are different both in size and their angles. I haven't sorted out the rear yet, that will be the next post.

So knowing the top surface of the sole I decided to make some new ribs. This is a matter of templating and fitting, using a scribe and then doing lots of fitting. I need these ribs to be pretty close, but they don't have to be absolutely perfect. I can make small adjustments when I bed them in thickened epoxy. The distance from the front lip to the first rib is slightly longer than I wanted, but the decking is 7/8" thick and I think it can handle the 20"+ span without too much deflection and trying to fit a rib on that island of the old table support seemed way too problematic. Otherwise I chose to space these about 16" apart. So lots of climbs in and out of the boat and back to the band saw today.

The rib behind the 2nd island has to accommodate the whale pump hose and the Rule bilge pump hose. The whale pump hose comes right down the center line, where the smaller hose will lead up and out the side and go under the galley.

Where I left it today was scratching my head about the rear area. The little rib showing now under the engine tub will ultimately get cut in two and separated to allow the 1-5/8" OD hose to just barely make it under the deck. I want to do some more light glass work in this area too and that will crowd this hose just slightly more.

When I first started this it was not my intention to make structural ribs, but I think that they will end up acting that way regardless. All I really wanted was support for the sole, but these are all 5/4 stock white oak, so no matter what they are pretty stiff and when I tab them in they will stiffen the hull whether I want them to or not.

We got to 59 ° here today, so I could have done epoxy work if I had been ready. Temps are going back down now, so will have to wait to do that kind of work. But there is much more fitting and sorting out to do before that is really necessary anyway.

I have also decided that to provide long term access to the entire bilge the decking will be screwed to the ribs and the heads will remain exposed. The strips are 4" and 3" and will be glued together to form several sections that can be removed independently. The center 4" section will also have two grill sections to provide easy access and ventilation. More on that part of the build coming.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Attached Files
20170216_101655_resize.jpg [992.53 KBytes] - (737 downloads)
20170216_102547_resize.jpg [951.75 KBytes] - (730 downloads)
Bubinga and Paduch decking
20170217_140145_resize.jpg [1063.53 KBytes] - (714 downloads)
20170217_140230_resize.jpg [964.98 KBytes] - (740 downloads)
20170217_153106_resize.jpg [900.97 KBytes] - (709 downloads)

Dave Graf
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Re: Cabin Sole Rebuild, MaJic Carpet [Re: Coastie] #17128
02/21/17 12:25 PM
02/21/17 12:25 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 678
Maryland, USA
Bob Rutsch Offline
Governor at Large
Bob Rutsch  Offline
Governor at Large
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 678
Maryland, USA
It will be great to have future access as well as clear pathways for the bilge pump hoses. One trick from WHK is to run the electric bilge pump outlet to the sink drain using a standard kitchen dishwasher fitting.

I get the impression from your description and the pictures that you are rebuilding the sole to be flat. Without standing inside my boat I am fairly sure (but not certain) that the original has a gentle curve from sides down to the bilge cover. I would assume a flat floor would be easier to install, but you lose out on drainage and some extra height clearance--inch or two makes a difference if you are in the 6 foot range.

I only realized after all these years that the port settee is wider than the starboard side, at least on hulls 460+. In your pictures you can see the bilge is not centered relative to the floor--there is more space to starboard than to port.

Re: Cabin Sole Rebuild, MaJic Carpet [Re: Coastie] #17129
02/21/17 06:26 PM
02/21/17 06:26 PM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 218
Scappoose, OR
C
Coastie Offline OP
Senior Member
Coastie  Offline OP
Senior Member
C
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 218
Scappoose, OR
The center section of the sole is flat or nearly so in the original form. It is the corners that are all pulled up and accommodate the curves of the hull. The thickness of my solid hardwood sole is about the same as the combination of the glass, balsa and then the teak and holly. If the center section were any lower than what I am laying out there wouldn't even be room for the large whale pump hose. The max headroom occurs right in front of the engine and then decreases significantly as you go forward.

I'm building the grates for ventilation now and as soon as I have them sorted I can glue up the first 3 center strips and place them in the boat. Then I plan to work outward one strip at a time to the transition points I have laid out. Then using some pixy dust I will figure out the angle those corners come up at and then just do some tedious fitting. The forward part of the sole is not going to be too bad, but the rear with the way the wings work is going to be a serious puzzle. I have the original pieces from the rear, I am just not too sure they will be much help with the way I am sorting this thing out.


Dave Graf
Re: Cabin Sole Rebuild, MaJic Carpet [Re: Coastie] #17138
02/23/17 11:04 PM
02/23/17 11:04 PM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 218
Scappoose, OR
C
Coastie Offline OP
Senior Member
Coastie  Offline OP
Senior Member
C
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 218
Scappoose, OR
Here us the video on the rebuild of the cabin sole I'm working on. This shows how I'm making the two large grates and my plan for supporting the new sole.

The Rebuilding of MaJic Carpet


Dave Graf
Re: Cabin Sole Rebuild, MaJic Carpet [Re: Coastie] #17139
02/24/17 06:37 PM
02/24/17 06:37 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 678
Maryland, USA
Bob Rutsch Offline
Governor at Large
Bob Rutsch  Offline
Governor at Large
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 678
Maryland, USA
Love those grates, a thing of beauty. Screw into the hull, Doh!

Re: Cabin Sole Rebuild, MaJic Carpet [Re: Coastie] #17164
03/10/17 11:47 PM
03/10/17 11:47 PM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 218
Scappoose, OR
C
Coastie Offline OP
Senior Member
Coastie  Offline OP
Senior Member
C
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 218
Scappoose, OR
Here is a sneak peak at where this adventure got to today. The main field and the two outboard panels are glued up and cut to size. So far so good. The next adventure could finish the job of making my hair go grey and that is sorting out the four corner wings. I know the wings tilt up about 10°, but getting the fit right while also maintaining the grain pattern match so that it all looks good will be very interesting.

I'm doing this with solid wood because I like working with hardwoods. I think this sole could also be sorted out reasonably well in plywood and some of the newer laminate options. But when it comes to cool, this sole will really stand out. I also think that in terms of durability it should equal or exceed the life of the original sole particularly since it will be able to breath and be well sealed from moisture.

[Linked Image]

Attached Files
20170310_153413_resize.jpg [944.33 KBytes] - (633 downloads)
Bubinga and Paduch cabin sole.
Last edited by Coastie; 03/10/17 11:49 PM.

Dave Graf
Re: Cabin Sole Rebuild, MaJic Carpet [Re: Coastie] #17165
03/11/17 12:02 AM
03/11/17 12:02 AM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 218
Scappoose, OR
C
Coastie Offline OP
Senior Member
Coastie  Offline OP
Senior Member
C
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 218
Scappoose, OR
Here is where it really will get interesting. These rear corner wings have all kinds of shape going on. The oak blocks will be bonded to the hull so I have something to screw into and they have been tapered and fit into each position to properly support the wing at the correct height. These blocks all have saw kerfs in them and will be coated with CPES and then painted with bilge paint, The drain hose for the cooler is going to get sleeved with some clear pvc hose and led to the bilge. I don't think that with this bilge area now fully coated in epoxy that this step is essential, but it is easy to do now.[Linked Image]

Attached Files
20170310_120931_resize.jpg [811.79 KBytes] - (597 downloads)
Last edited by Coastie; 03/11/17 12:03 AM.

Dave Graf
Re: Cabin Sole Rebuild, MaJic Carpet [Re: Coastie] #17170
03/14/17 07:02 PM
03/14/17 07:02 PM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 218
Scappoose, OR
C
Coastie Offline OP
Senior Member
Coastie  Offline OP
Senior Member
C
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 218
Scappoose, OR
Well those cool support blocks I made and showed above won't work. I have managed to fit the rear wings into place, but can't get them in with the loose blocks already in place. So what I am thinking now is to install the wings, slide them into position, then install the two large outboard sole sections followed by the main center section. This will be a hairy can of worms because the fit up and grain and pattern matching need to be dead on or it will look like crap. In hind sight it would have been easier to use the blocks as I originally planned and then install each strip for the wings separately, oh well.

Here is what it looks like now: Cabin Sole, Adventure Into Insanity

grin



Dave Graf
Re: Cabin Sole Rebuild, MaJic Carpet [Re: Coastie] #17177
03/16/17 08:34 PM
03/16/17 08:34 PM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 218
Scappoose, OR
C
Coastie Offline OP
Senior Member
Coastie  Offline OP
Senior Member
C
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 218
Scappoose, OR
Ok with a clear head this morning I sorted out the rear wings. For sure they can't be installed as I built them with the support blocks already in place, but it is easy to get them into position and then slide the blocks in afterward. I can't have the support pattern exactly like I started out, but the wings will end up with more than adequate support. I'm building the forward wings now and will start coating all of the panels with CPES. I also drilled all of the holes to attach the panels to ribs so that they can also get coated with the CPES. Next is coating the ribs with the same material with a couple of coats and then I actually start painting the bilge. I have a ways to go yet, however I can now see an end to this part of the project.

The match up of the pattern came really close, but isn't absolutely perfect, just really good. There are also slightly larger gaps than I would have liked to have seen on the outboard edges of the wings, but they are within the range that I can fill or trim. Having re-sorted this out I am happy that I did the wings as panels. I think I could have gotten it done using individual boards, but that wouldn't be a perfect solution either.
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Attached Files
20170316_103309_resize.jpg [814.53 KBytes] - (511 downloads)
20170316_102509_resize.jpg [819.92 KBytes] - (523 downloads)
20170316_102448_resize.jpg [1259.86 KBytes] - (533 downloads)
20170316_164541_resize.jpg [901.03 KBytes] - (521 downloads)
Last edited by Coastie; 03/16/17 08:38 PM.

Dave Graf
Re: Cabin Sole Rebuild, MaJic Carpet [Re: Coastie] #17183
03/18/17 02:30 PM
03/18/17 02:30 PM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 218
Scappoose, OR
C
Coastie Offline OP
Senior Member
Coastie  Offline OP
Senior Member
C
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 218
Scappoose, OR
I wanted to add some additional information about the way that I reinforced the hull of MaJic Carpet. For those following my rebuild you will recall that the first thing we found out about this boat when we pulled it from the water was that it had taken a hard hit to the keel. Close inspection on the exterior of the hull found no damage at the front or rear of the keel. The small indication at the rear of the keel as it met the hull turned out to be just a lap of the glass work. On the interior though there was indication that the hull had flexed pretty hard, but not to the point of cracking any structural glass work, just some of the goofy vermiculite around the keel sump.

So prior to doing this work to replace the sole I decided that I would reinforce the hull somewhat. So I did add some glass on the sides of the sump and at the rear of the keel. Then I add two diagonal braces that are intended to be structural stiffeners. The bits that I have added to support the new sole are bonded to the hull and would have the effect of stiffening the hull, but that is a secondary effect. They are mainly intended as just supports for the sole. If they cracked away from the hull after the sole has been reinstalled that wouldn't bother me.

I didn't take the change of the structural design of this boat lightly. There are always implications to modifying a proven design. In my case I thought it important to stiffen the rear of the keel, but so far have done nothing for the front side of the keel. The rear section gets highly compressed from a keel impact, the front section gets super high tension. In general FRP does better in tension, but there are limits. I'm not sure how many of you saw this post:

J30 Keel Failure

After seeing these images and knowing that I intend to reglass the entire bottom of my boat after dealing with the core issues it occurs to me that adding some additional reinforcement at the front of the keel may be worthwhile. Particularly if there is some unseen cracking from the keel hit. Also after seeing these images I don't think that a new structural member at the front of the keel sump would have helped stop the keel failure. Trying to get something structural at the front would also be very difficult to do, there just isn't much space to do anything below the main bulkhead.

I am not too concerned with one design issues, just in maintaining the structural integrity of the boat. I just hauled off all of the old bits of the cabin sole and the vermiculite and I suspect that all of that old stuff weighs much more than my new sole and the new ribs and reinforcement that I have done. Albeit that was never the intention of this part of the repair.


Dave Graf
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