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Re: Drying Balsa Core with Vacuum and Heat [Re: Coastie] #17277
04/17/17 06:42 PM
04/17/17 06:42 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,668
Portsmouth, RI
Rhapsody #348 Offline
Past J/30 Class President
Rhapsody #348  Offline
Past J/30 Class President
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,668
Portsmouth, RI
Black balsa is definitely too far gone. It probably smells pretty bad which is another indicator. I was getting water draining out of the center laminate in this area for weeks. That's when I decided to grind that back and lay up multiple layers of 17 oz biaxial cloth to build it to the original thickness.

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Re: Drying Balsa Core with Vacuum and Heat [Re: Coastie] #17281
04/19/17 09:30 PM
04/19/17 09:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 63
Westerly, RI
Chris623 Offline
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Chris623  Offline
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Westerly, RI
The short version of my suggestion is to peel the skin, leaving the balsa intact.

The reasons that I am suggesting that the the kerf vacuum heat method be abandoned are as follows:
1. It's taking a lot of time and effort.
2. There will be a lot more scarfing with this method, on both sides of the cuts. While fairing back repairs consisting of 3 or 4 inch wide cuts beveled out to the approximate 12:1 ratio (4.75 degrees) is clearly easier than fairing in whole repair sections, this scarfing takes a lot of time and effort in itself. (Note: Scarfing is necessary whether or not the whole bottom is covered in additional layers of glass since to perform a proper repair and restore original strength, the resulting laminate should have approximately similar thickness and strength across the surface to prevent excessively stiff areas and nearby small weak areas / lines. See EpoxyWorks.com for more on this.)
3. Even if you could get it dry enough (i.e. less than half scale on your meter), there is risk that lowering the pressure and adding heat has caused the lowered water's boiling point to produce expanding vapor which may have pushed the FRP away from the balsa. This would decrease the bond between the two and add small capillaries for future water intrusion. This could be why chapter 5 of the West Systems 002-550 Fiberglass Boat Repair & Maintenance Manual warns against vacuum combined with temperatures beyond 130 degrees F even though this temperature would seemingly be far below the glass transition temperature.

Now on methods to get this accomplished. Given that your sounding has revealed that you have little or no delam in general, and that you already have a decent heat source, you could try a peel with heat, wasting the skin in a small area. To go about this, I would suggest that a rectangle be created with saw kerfs, but not all the way to the corners. Use a multi-tool saw or similar to create additional kerf cuts to make the rectangle have rounded corners. Next, create a thin metal heat mask of about the same dimension as the skin you are trying to remove, place the heat close enough that it heats this rectangle just above the glass transition temperature, which will be far above the boiling point of water. Once the skin becomes gooey, the resulting steam will bubble the skin up in places, making it easy to remove with a paint scraper, but leaving the core intact. Once that is done, rough up the surface somewhat to break the resin seal, dry overnight with some light heat and airflow, replace any small sections of rotted balsa, scarf the outer edges and then laminate on a new skin. Luckily, this high heat method goes fast, forcing you to be present to prevent very possible fires if the FRP sags into the heater or the FRP gets too warm!
Alternatively, if you find areas of badly decomposed balsa, you could do the opposite - save the skin and replace the balsa. While texts on the subject talk about peeling the skin and reusing both, this is very hard to do if you don't already have significant delamination.

There is yet another alternative. This method is basically creating a sea of holes, then using vacuum and 130 degree heat to try to dry the core. This is also described in chapter 5 of the above. I hesitate to bring this up since I have now heard from two people who did this without really dropping the moisture level significantly. However, they both were comforted by the fact that all of the holes, once filled with thickened epoxy, seemingly acted as nails between the two skins to restore some of the strength in the area. It also has the added advantage that scarfing is not required since small holes don't create big weakness areas / lines.

Good luck!

-Chris



Re: Drying Balsa Core with Vacuum and Heat [Re: Coastie] #17282
04/19/17 11:23 PM
04/19/17 11:23 PM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 218
Scappoose, OR
C
Coastie Offline OP
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Coastie  Offline OP
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Scappoose, OR
Chris,
1) This heat and vacuum drying process is taking time, but it really isn't that much effort. I do think you could make a good case that just wasting the skin and replacing the core would be faster and possibly end up with a stronger end result, particularly if the core is well on its way to mush. But the fairing process would be exponentially more difficult, unless a fair hull is not your requirement.

2) As to scarfing and repairs of the saw kerfs that is minor compared to maintaining the 95+% of the exterior hull shape to start the fairing process with. Removing the exterior skin, replacing the core and then replacing the exterior skin followed by some serious fairing does not even come close to the amount of work that I am now seeing as required with this process. Keep in mind that the problem with my boat is not delamination, it is wet core. The "nailing" technique might make sense for a local repair of delamination when the core itself is sound. But if the core is essentially sound, only wet, I do not see how nailing it adds anything to strength, particularly in shear. What makes balsa core such a good core material from an engineering point of view is its compressive and shear strength. When it is wet and the fibers are pliable it has lost some of both of these qualities, but not all strength is lost as evidenced by the many J30's still sailing around with saturated hulls. The nailing process does little to repair the shear strength of this matrix. To regain that shear strength somehow you would need to reestablish the bond across the surfaces of the core and the skins. Replacing the core and reskinning would accomplish that.

I have already demonstrated to myself how to remove the outer skin without too much effort simply by prying it off after cutting 4" wide strips and then using some sharpened pry bars. The bond between the skin and the balsa is not all that substantial as to require any extraordinary techniques. I am also quite certain that the process I am using isn't doing anything that would damage the existing lamination because that would require the moisture to expand in a confined space. That expansion can not happen in a reduced atmosphere environment, nor can it happen if that space isn't 'confined' (so far this hull leaks like a sieve). If there were no vacuum then the expansion would be a problem and may cause delamination. I am in no position to test what the thresholds for minimum vacuum are to prevent steam expansion, but my empirical impression is that even when the vacuum level was in the 7" of Hg. the moisture wants to move to the lowest pressure, which is the pump. The plan is to
add heavy biaxial cloth laminate using epoxy resin once this drying adventure is completed. There will be no means for water to intrude through this very heavy epoxy laminate skin, this is not a thin barrier coat it will be much thicker coating than that, but it will also ultimately get epoxy barrier coating applied to it. If I were using a polyester resin for the lamination then maybe there could be moisture move back into the core, but epoxy is impervious unless there were an imperfection in the laminate and I don't plan on leaving too many of those.

The overall heat levels I am applying to the skin also do not concern me for delamination. So far the skin is getting into the 200° range, which is not much higher than the deck temperatures can achieve on a hot sunny day in a southern lattitude.

So to sum up, I am very satisfied with how this is working overall and with what I perceive the entire repair process is going to be using heat and vacuum. The area I am working right now does concern me that it is possible that the balsa has deteriorated too far, so I will remove a small patch to inspect it. If that little inspection patch is not black mush I will rebond the skin and move on. I am not opposed to removing balsa where it is necessary, but I am really sure that getting an area that the skin has been removed, the balsa replaced, back into to a fair condition is a lot of overhead work.

So I appreciate your paying attention to this project and commenting. I also understand that I am using a somewhat unconventional process, but so far I think this is better than any of the many alternatives I've studied so far. If at some point I think this process sucks and is not going to get me a a sound and fair hull I will be the first to say so.


Dave Graf
Re: Drying Balsa Core with Vacuum and Heat [Re: Coastie] #17285
04/24/17 05:36 PM
04/24/17 05:36 PM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 218
Scappoose, OR
C
Coastie Offline OP
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Coastie  Offline OP
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Scappoose, OR
Ok so I cut a small 4" x 4" piece of the skin off and just by luck that exposed two very different blocks of balsa. I should also note that in the 40" x 24' patch I had been working I pulled out 48 oz. of water. One of those blocks felt dry to the touch, was nice and firm and white and the other, not so much. The 2nd block was essentially dry but was as easily compressed as a marshmallow and quite dark. Not at all what I wanted to see. And while the sample was a small one it could easily be said that is a 50% failure rate. The bond of the skin in this patch was good and similar to the larger one I pulled a few weeks ago.

The small patch I pulled is maybe 10" from the keel so this is an area of high stress area where the shear strength of the balsa is more critical. I have tried to rationalize my options, but the only one that I think I can live with is to open this up and replace the core. A second option might be to just add multiple layers of heavy glass to make this exterior skin much more structural than it is now. As I move outboard from the keel I might become more forgiving of some soft balsa. On this port side the skin is just seriously chewed up with osmosis zits. Relying on any strength from this degraded skin is not a great option. So new core and new skin is likely going to be the fix at least anywhere parallel to keel. With weakened core and a weak skin in this area it is not that difficult to imagine a catastrophic failure.

Unfortunately much of this part of the project is going on hold for several weeks while I recover from carpal tunnel surgery on both wrists. But I do think I can continue the drying process across the rest of the hull, since that is a fairly low stress/effort project, but we will see how that goes.


Dave Graf
Re: Drying Balsa Core with Vacuum and Heat [Re: Coastie] #17315
05/21/17 03:23 PM
05/21/17 03:23 PM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 218
Scappoose, OR
C
Coastie Offline OP
Senior Member
Coastie  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 218
Scappoose, OR
I just peeled back most of the area that I had recently tried to dry (after pulling 48 oz.). A couple of interesting things, first near the keel the skin was .020" thick and about 25" outboard from the keel the glass was . 005" barely more than a sheet of paper. Now I have ground some deteriorated skin away when I was cleaning the hull up, but I doubt it was that much. I have 29 oz. biaxial cloth on hand and had been thinking to take that to the waterline, but that would be much heavier than what is or was there in the first place, so I will have to sort out another layup schedule.

The other thing that is modestly interesting are the previous repairs. Hard to say if the damage under and around them happened before the repair or was aggravated after, but the damage in the balsa is much bigger than these quarter sized repairs. Near to the keel there is some solid wood evident that I exposed with my saw cut. I will be grinding all of that area back to expose more wood so the new glass can bond to those surfaces. I would also expect to be wrapping the glass repair down onto the keel itself. I want this area to be as strong as possible and I don't want the edge of this heavy glass to end anywhere near where I have made my cuts or the faired back sections.

I think I will work on drying the sections above this patch once I have replaced the core in this area and have glassed it in enough to create a seal.

Once I have started actually filling this all back in I will move the updates back to the main MaJic Carpet rebuild thread.

[Linked Image]

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Last edited by Coastie; 05/21/17 03:25 PM.

Dave Graf
Re: Drying Balsa Core with Vacuum and Heat [Re: Coastie] #17317
05/26/17 05:53 PM
05/26/17 05:53 PM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 218
Scappoose, OR
C
Coastie Offline OP
Senior Member
Coastie  Offline OP
Senior Member
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 218
Scappoose, OR
So this lovely spring morning here in Oregon I was out chopping soggy balsa out of the bottom of my boat. After working this area for a couple of days with the heat and vacuum, what I managed to accomplish was to get the balsa to a damp condition. You can actually feel that the balsa is damp to the touch, but it is not black or gooey, just damp and very soft in some patchy areas. After removing this stuff I then got the 4" disc sander out and cleaned the inner skin up back to bare fiberglass. I think I knew this answer before I did this, but I got the moisture meter out to check this bare inner skin and it shows to be wet too. That doesn't actually surprise me, but it does make me think about what I have to do before any rebuilding steps. And all of this gets me to wondering what it is I am trying to accomplish here.

The reason to do this kind of crazy work is to get the hull back to its original structural integrity and back to a fighting weight. But there are lots of ways to gain strength without removing this balsa. The easy way is to simply add new layers of glass and make the outer skin become more structural, but this would add some additional weight. This wet balsa is structurally compromised as compared to its new dry condition, but even damp it is still providing some significant structural strength, so if you just add more glass for strength, how much would you add?

What I am getting at is that it may be good enough to suck the juice out of this thing, leave the existing balsa in place and then do a heavy glass with epoxy resin on the outer skin. The epoxy layer would seal the old skin from gaining any new moisture and likely greatly slow down the degradation of the old balsa likely by many years.

This boat has had some serious work done in the past too. Close to the keel the material I thought was wood is actually foam core and I don't think that is original to the boat. So at some point in time they reworked the area alongside and behind the keel and replaced the balsa with foam core.

One of the other interesting things to note is that the area around the old blister repairs must have been saturated with a penetrating resin of some sort. while the obvious part of these repairs is about the size of a quarter, the area that has been hardened up is much larger, several inches in fact. If this was the "nailing" technique then that is a more structural repair than I had been thinking it would be. Trying to remove the balsa around these old repairs would have be done in some other way besides just prying it off like the rest of the balsa, either by oscillating saw or grinder.

Anyway, I'm not trying to cheese out on my project, but I do want to go sailing someday too. So let me know what you think would make sense to do here, you all have way more experience with these balsa core boats than I do.

As an example after seeing the effect of those blister repairs I think one repair option would be to 1) continue drying the hull as best as possible 2) remove the outer skin to inspect the balsa. 3) use a penetrating epoxy on the exposed core. 4) Glass the exterior skin and fair. 5) Go sailing.

While I am waiting for all of your opinions, I think I will go out and saturate some of the exposed partially wet core with CPE and when cured test that area with the moisture meter. If the balsa becomes firm from the epoxy, then I would expect the meter to want to think that core is dry. For sure if it becomes firm then in my humble opinion that is good enough.

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Last edited by Coastie; 05/26/17 05:58 PM.

Dave Graf
Re: Drying Balsa Core with Vacuum and Heat [Re: Coastie] #17322
05/31/17 07:27 PM
05/31/17 07:27 PM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 218
Scappoose, OR
C
Coastie Offline OP
Senior Member
Coastie  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 218
Scappoose, OR
The patch that I dug out a few days ago has now been back filled with some Divincell foam core that I snitched from my brothers boat plant. Piecing the bits together was a pain, but that stuff is expensive. While I might like to do all of my core work with this kind of product that would be extremely expensive. Doing this work with balsa will be expensive enough I think. What I guess I will have to rely on is that the epoxy resins are far more impervious to water, so the blistering problem that caused the balsa core to fail should be eliminated. So I will have to compromise some on this part of the project.

Today my new pneumatic impact hammer arrived and in fairly short order I was able to remove the skin from an area about 2' x 3". This tool was very easy to use and is much easier on the hands then using the pry bars and a hammer like I had done before. It would have also been the perfect tool for removing the vermiculite when I was doing that project last fall. The chisel has a fairly rounded edge and does not want to dig in, unless you want it to. It separates the skin from the core easily and quickly and doesn't make much of a mess. While I have a large compressor in my shop I think for skin removal a small portable compressor would work just fine to operate this tool with.

Now for the interesting part of this adventure. Prior to pulling the skin off in this area I had mostly dry readings after using the vacuum drying process. Once the skin was off the entire area showed as wet core (again). Someone that is more technically inclined might be able to explain that one to me, these meters are supposed to indicate core as well as the skin. WIth the skin off you can easily see the areas of the core that absolutely need to be replaced. These areas are not black or gooey, just in very softened state and are about 15% of the total area exposed. With the skin off I think you could use the vacuum drying process even more effectively, but with so much area needing to be replaced I think the time spent to just completely replace the core would make more sense. I have some ideas about how to use a small plunge router to remove these bad patches, but doing larger sections of core all at one time is just going to be easier to accomplish. I pieced together the port side with the foam and that was more work than it needed to be. Larger sheets will just make this go faster.

On the port side I used my high volume vacuum pump to pull the foam into the hull. This pump can only barely pull about 5 inches of Hg., but it can do that all day long without heating up and it is relatively quiet. I think you can get the same effect with a shop vac, but I'm not so sure how they last when running for extended periods without air to help cool the motors. The other thing that is cool about this setup is using an inexpensive sink drain as the vacuum port. I just ran the 3/4" pvc hose into the drain pipe and taped it off.

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Last edited by Coastie; 05/31/17 07:30 PM.

Dave Graf
Re: Drying Balsa Core with Vacuum and Heat [Re: Coastie] #17325
06/02/17 05:12 PM
06/02/17 05:12 PM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 218
Scappoose, OR
C
Coastie Offline OP
Senior Member
Coastie  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 218
Scappoose, OR
After corresponding with Chris Tate about some approaches to this crazy project I decided that I would first go out and test removal of the bad balsa core in small sections that matched the block sizes of the new balsa core I have. At least in the new balsa I have the block sizes are fairly consistent, so I thought if I removed old bad balsa in similar sizes that would make the process more manageable. So I marked out some sections and then got my tool arsenal together. First was a normal small die grinder with a very course burr. Second was the right angle die grinder. Third was the new impact chisel. Fourth was a small router with a 1/4" spiral bit.

The die grinder with the burr gobbled through the bad balsa and got to the inner skin quickly and easily. It was easy to control and didn't want to chew into the inner skin. It did slow down dramatically when it was trying to remove the good balsa inside the patch I was trying to work.

The impact chisel could cut the outer skin easily, peel it and then lift the balsa away from the inner skin easily as well. You had to be a little careful at the perimeter of the patch so as to not damage the adjacent balsa. It liked working the larger patches more than the smaller ones because you can get lower angles.

The router was good at cutting a nice perimeter edge, but it was a challenge to see what was going on. This tool would be good for establishing the perimeter, but very tedious to remove large patches and for sure a screw up could quickly puncture the inner skin.

The small right angle die grinder with a 2" abrasive pad was great for cleaning up the inner skin, but is not overly powerful and stalls easily. But it would be the right tool for working these kinds of patches.

So I worked several of the patches that I marked out. The bulk of the material removal went fairly quickly. The time started going up as I worked the edges trying to square them up so they could receive a new balsa plug. But and this is a big "but" what I noticed with the die grinder burr was that in several places the soft/bad balsa dove down closer to the inner skin and likely continued some unknown distance. So the area that was marked out on the top surface didn't necessarily include all of the bad balsa.
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Last edited by Coastie; 06/02/17 05:14 PM.

Dave Graf
Re: Drying Balsa Core with Vacuum and Heat [Re: Coastie] #17326
06/02/17 05:43 PM
06/02/17 05:43 PM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 218
Scappoose, OR
C
Coastie Offline OP
Senior Member
Coastie  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 218
Scappoose, OR
So after working for about an hour on this approach above I stepped back and decided that while the patch balsa program could work it was a lot of work for a potentially questionable result, particularly if you didn't get all of the bad balsa removed. The area that I have currently removed the exterior skin and exposed the balsa on is about 2' x 3'. What I know now is that with the pneumatic impact chisel I could have removed all of the skin and all of the balsa in this area in 30 minutes or so. In another 30 minutes, probably less I could have had the entire skin cleaned up and ready for new core. The time it would take to put in large sheets of core, vs. the plugs is a toss.

Completely replacing the core seems like a lot of work, but I am inclined to think that it is likely substantially faster overall to just get it out and get on with it. Then you know you have actually fixed the problem. So then I took the meter and starting at the waterline I slid it down to where the reading on my meter shows 1.5 and marked that off all around the bottom of the boat. Then using some fuzzy math I calculated that there is about 132 sq. ft. of balsa that needs to be replaced. The entire bottom of this boat though is going to get reglassed regardless of whether or not the core is getting replaced. Areas just getting glassed will be further dried before doing so. Hopefully then with some new epoxy resin and a proper thickness of skin this boat will go another 40+ years down the rivers and bays. Looking at Jamestown Distributors pricing for H80, 3/4" Divinycell that would be about $1,400 in foam core plus the cost of the resins and cloth, so about a $2,000+ adventure in working overhead.

There is light at the end of this tunnel, I'm sure of it.

The reason I am posting all of this adventure is so that someone else similarly inclined can get an idea of what this project entails and hopefully the best ways to go after the project. While this is a lot more work then I was thinking about when I bought the boat I still think when I'm finished this will still be an OK deal. My boat will be sound and capable of sailing anywhere I want to take it. I also expect that it will remain to be a competitive racer.

Last edited by Coastie; 06/02/17 05:44 PM.

Dave Graf
Re: Drying Balsa Core with Vacuum and Heat [Re: Coastie] #17330
06/15/17 10:26 PM
06/15/17 10:26 PM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 218
Scappoose, OR
C
Coastie Offline OP
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Coastie  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 218
Scappoose, OR
I wanted to summarize this thread with my overall results of using vacuum and heat to dry balsa. 1st is does work, but it is very slow and the drying results are uneven. Areas next to the saw kerfs dry out more than the overall area. There is expense to this technique including the vacuum pump, sealing tapes, films and propane.

The main advantage to the approach is leaving the exterior skin in place to make fairing when you have finished easier. But I think the bottom line in the end is you are going to be doing a lot of fairing after repairing the saw kerfs too. This may be a satisfactory way of dealing with wet core above the waterline, like the area around the exhaust. When the polyester skin is a far gone as what mine is, I don't see the value to saving it anymore.

I think just peeling the exterior skin and getting on with it in the end is the most practical way to get through and as can be seen from the new thread that is where I am with my project now. So the vacuum pump is back in the shop and for some reason it seems to have its eye on the very tired rudder sitting just above it. More on that another day.


Dave Graf
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