Rob: I have the drawings for the J-30 stern rail with light plate & wired, stem fitting, large gudgeon pin, small gudgeon pin, upper & lower pintle, rudder gudgeon, tiller straps, chain plates, stanchions & bases and we have made numerous bow rails. If you have any questions let me know, thanks Greg.
-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Van Name [mailto:r.vanname@ieee.org]
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 7:06 PM
To: info@topsinquality.com
Subject: Re: Stanchion for a J/30


Gregg,
Do you have a listing of J/30 replacement parts that you can supply? The entire fleet is 25+ years old and things are wearing out.

I received a replacement stanchion from Tops in Quality today. Some photos can be seen at http://sailnordicstar.blogspot.com/

Rob, I could not determine Gregs e mail so I am sending this to you. I need a drawing for the 1" Gudgeon pin for the rudder. Can you provide that to me or indicate Greg's e mail address? My e mail is sailingfast@charter.net Thanks

I have tried to get a Gudgeon Pin 1" ( part number RR81 78P) from RigRite for three years but they seem to need more orders. If anyone needs this plart please order now to get the quantity up so they will make them. Thanks, Dave

I just refitted the entire rudder mount. Four hours for the machinist and some hard work and some 3-M 4200. A prop repair shop should at least be able to supply a chunk of used prop shaft and a machinist can bore the gudgens and make new pins. Have them made a little loose to make up for the misalignment that will occur. I'm sure it was cheaper than buying new and I know that the job was done right.

I only have Gregg's phone number 800-414-2801, email is unknown. I'll email you a drawing I have of the pin. Meanwhile I also sent the drawing to the forum Webmaster for posting.

Attached is the pdf file that Rob sent me. Contact info for Tops in Quality is on the J/30 equipment suppliers page.

pieces of 1 in used prop shaft.
Now how hard can that be???
weld a piece of 1/8 in. stock to the top and drill a hole.

Actually grab a couple of feet of that shaft and you can use it to line up the Gudgens if you ever have to patch the transom and remount them

Last Fling --
my kind of J30 owner.

Vic

I received an email from Jim Bemiss - Freebird #143 indicating that stainless parts supplier "Tops in Quality" has been replaced by White Water Marine Inc.

I have confirmed the change and updated the J/30 Equipment Suppliers page with the information, and pasted it below.

White Water Marine (Stainless Parts)
3755 West Water St.
P.O. Box 610595
Port Huron, MI 48060-0595
Tel: 810.987.4837
Fax: 810.966.0597
E-mail: White Water Marine Website Contact Form

See Revised Drawings at this post below

A friend who races with Espo on the J/29 Hustler was looking for rudder hardware drawings. He was unable to find them and decided to reverse engineer and draw his own. I've attached 3 files. I'd appreciate if folks would look these over and comment on them. They could be a great resource for someone looking to get replacement hardware.

If you click on the pictures below, you can download a printable pdf file for each drawing.

Thanks Bill
I plan on working out the slack in my steering this winter.
The pintle and gudgeon cannot both be 1.000 in. There must be clearance in there. I hope to find it in the pintle, easier to replace.
Do most of the J30s have a little steering slop.Mostly noticed downwind. How have others handled this?

the clicking is part of the driver steering reflex input process.

in combination with other tactile inputs this provides a deeper "oneness" with the boat.

why would you want to disable this input?

Clicking? Mine is more like a "clunk". Not so loud when at the helm, but if you are below, it is pretty obvious

Yeah, mine is pretty sloppy too. I'd love to tighten it up a little. Would really help in light air especially.

Teflon tape or heat shrink tubing before a regatta helps.

I just spoke to Rod Johnstone. Rod seems to remember the clearance being .005" for the pintle to gudgeon. The pin was made of bronze and the gudgeon stainless so it wouldn't wear steel on steel.

Updated Drawings

Thanks to Will Museler who updated the drawings based on feedback from Rod Johnstone.

If you click on the pictures below, you can download a printable pdf file for each drawing.

Gents,
I'm unaware of what is on other boats but on Wildcat, if the pintle is bronze it has been plated.
So... with a set of calipers, check the size of the gudgeon hole and mike the pin size. The pin can be re-plated to build up the OD. After plating it can be ground to size. Likewise, the ID of the gudgeons could be filled with weld and re-sized (though I would be concerned about heat distortion on such thin material)
If it were my problem, I'd have the gudgeons cleaned up (oversized by .010 or so) to insure they are round and then re-plate the pins and have them ground .005 under the new gudgeon demension. Most any local machine shop should be able to help here.
You don't have much material to work with on the existing gudgeons. If you are making new, I would suggest making the gudgeons oversized and then bushing the holes with a .500 or 1.000 long bushing to give more surface area and something that can be replaced when necessary.

Roger, roger SS. ... don't think they would plate bronze with SS.
I know three boats with nice SS pins. As I remember Bill's boat has a set of nice SS pins ... with stainless locking pins as well.
I'm thinking the only thing bronze that moves, other than parts of the motor ... is the prop.

I'm thinking that somewhere we decided that the easiest way to fabricate new pintles was to cut a piece of 1" prop shaft and use a pin and washer on top and just the pin on the bottom.

I've got an extra set of stainless pintles if anyone is looking - I think they show normal wear - let me know if interested and I'll get some pictures.

-dan

So OK ...
a. we are pretty sure the pins in most cases are not bronze... perhaps in all cases?
b. do we have any confirmation that the gudgeon hole size built to was really to .005in.? say to +- .001? always have to have a +-?

AND that two holes drilled or punched in that stock and placed 2 inches apart and welded together could also have a combined specification of .005in in alignment with the same, same hardware placed 2-3 feet apart?

I'm having a problem with .005in.

this boat was first worked out ~ 34 years ago????

Vic - the tolerances and material comments came from Rod Johnstone. I can't think of a better source. I'm sure that not all hardware out there is per the original spec tolerances or material.

roger, roger ... as a member of that 70+ crowd ... duh .... I am fully aware of my great memory of details from 40 years ago.

But the question remains: Can working to a .005in. clearance gap be practical in the alignment in two fittings with two 1.005 in. holes spaced 2 in. apart with those fittings ~2 feet apart be workable?

When we rebuilt the transom on 526 and had to redrill the holes for the grudgeon brackets ... it was beyond the ability of the staff available to align adequately enough to keep the rudder from binding when hard over to port. now fixed, but not by working to .005 specs.

A while ago, I think it was Bob Rutsch that suggested using nyliners to reduce slop in the pintle/gudeons. They're essentially thin plastic bushing you can insert around the pintle. I don't have the manufacturer or part number any more.

Perhaps we can easily resolve this question of hole size if someone has a digital caliper available such as Digital Caliper from Harbor Freight.

I'm thinking if someone measured the four holes fore and aft and beam to beam ... that would give us an indication of a range to guess what they were originally cut to. And then also measure the hole in the rudder hardware as another confirmation.

But in any case it would also document the effect of wear on those holes ... I haven't seen a pin with grooves worn into it ... so wear if at all must be at the holes ... although you would think that wear would show somewhat equally and a detectable grove would be present in the pin if we were going to have enough wear to detect a clicking action that wasn't originally built in.

The problem with the design is that stainless on stainless is just bad design due the fact it will gaul

I did a major rebuild on mine about 8 years ago I had them over bored inserted bronze inserts into the rudder and then had new pins made with stops on them Now the pins are fixed an the bronze rotates on them It took all the slop out of the rudder and has worn well

I've got calipers and the rudder is at home. I can measure the rudder holes on wildcat. The pins are on the boat and I won't be to the boat till end of the month.

I think Charlie has the right idea with the bronze bushings

Finally got around to measuring the holes
Boat is 25 yrs old
Top hole = 1.017
Bottom hole = 1.008
With that much wear on the top rudder hole, I'm very curious
to find out what the gudgeon plates on the boat look like

Russ

sounds like its time to take the parts to your local machine shop I'll bet the holes are out of round as well

I brought my bottom pin home
It measures .995 @ pintles to most worn area at gudgeon @ .984
Interesting wear pattern as expected rear side of top of pin and front side at bottom of pin
I have my old prop shaft i will take down and place it to see howw much slop it removes. It measures .999
Mine is 1984-#484
Stated wrong on first posting

continuing this discussion ... So OK if we acknowledge a .005 working figure ...
does that actually mean .005 between pin and rudder hardware or just in the hole and pin size?

working on rudder this week and looked at pins from 1984 late.

1. Pins in rudder hardware barely have enough slop for two strips of cheap copy paper say each sheet is .004 but only using narrow strip ... so say free space is about .008



I agree that the problem is not in the rudder hardware or pins.

2. the pins show a tiny amount of groove and using copy paper as an measuring tool ... I'm saying the groove is .002




3. the bottom pin is more worn that the top pin but not a lot.
[can tell the difference because the bottom of the bottom pin is corroded]




4. the real problem must be the gudgeons. where I am seeing over 1/8 in. of slop at the bottom one.

5. I am not going to do anything to "correct" this other than putting the bottom pin in the top gudgeon when i put the rudder back on Sunday.

Vic,

Ted Kaperonis, (specialK) tkaper6862@aol.com, had a very good looking set of pintles and gudgeons that he was selling from Hoodlum. They were from a freshwater boat that spent a lot of time on a trailer, I saw them about a year ago and I remember tthey looked in "like new" condition.

Lumpy