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Re: Dacron Main #5487
06/23/08 06:44 PM
06/23/08 06:44 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
To answer a couple of questions about the 54 mile race. The first leg was a broad reach, wind 20-25, a little deep for an A sail but since the A is a code three and smaller we choose it over our all purpose kite. Second leg was a fetch we flew our #2. Third leg was a close reach, we sailed our #2 until the wind shifted and we put up the all purpose kite(we blew out the A sail at the start), last leg was a beat, we sailed our #2.
We give the other J/30 time because we have a class #1, his number 1 is a 150. The point isn't that I won or he won, he's a great sailor and wins his share of flags. The point is both boats have a "high tech" main and in discussions, both of us will continue to buy non dacron mains. The newest J/30 in the town just bought a Quantum fusion "something" main (non dacron).
And by the way, I also have a 1/2 ounce kite, 2004 vintage, I consider it part of my old sail inventory.
Gents, the buggy whip salesmen argued for years about the stupidity of automobiles.
I submit that Dacron is heavy, does not maintain it's shape, etc, etc, but it's cheap and durable.
I'll ask the question again, if there is no benifit to a "high tech" main, then why not change the rule to allow it? Won't market will dictate the product? If there is no benifit to the high tech main, then you shouldn't be bothered by me and others having one. And if you are worried about the next greatet thing that just might come along just before the next nationals, I might suggest not getting out of bed in the morning either, you never know what might happen-new technology just might happen that day.

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Re: Dacron Main #5488
06/23/08 06:59 PM
06/23/08 06:59 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 48
Watchung, NJ
B Johansson Offline
Senior Member
B Johansson  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 48
Watchung, NJ
First of all in my humble opinion the J/30 has a very sweet rating in any velocity but 8-12 knots (any container would move then). We usually don't have a problem beating the J/29's, Olsons, S2's etc in less than 6-8 knots or +14 knots.
Basically I'm for changes in sailcloth even if I think it would only waste the owners money and may not help the boats that needs it the most, but if it brings more boats to the OD events it's a good thing.
As far as the 0.5 oz spinnaker a cheaper solution is to lift all "the stuff" out of the boat and put it on a scale and then leave several 100 # of stuff you don't need on the the dock. Bob Rutsch made an interesting comment about this a few years back.

Re: Dacron Main #5489
06/24/08 05:36 PM
06/24/08 05:36 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 675
Maryland, USA
Bob Rutsch Offline
Governor at Large
Bob Rutsch  Offline
Governor at Large
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 675
Maryland, USA
There is little doubt Russ chose a high tech main because he believes it makes his boat go faster. For that reason alone many (but not all) PHRF handicappers adjust the rating on modified J/30s compared to those sailed in the one-design configuration. There's little doubt his high tech main does make his boat go faster, though I'd be surprised if it is as much as the 6 seconds a mile typical rating adjustment.

The idea that we can 'attract PHRF sailors to one design racing' is oxymoronic. Russ could comply with the one-design restrictions. He could work to develop a fleet in his area or travel to one-design events. But he has chosen to play a different game with its own set of rules, while appealing for us to change our rules for his benefit.

Russ, pay dues to the class if you receive some benefit from being a part of it. With apologies to George Carlin, I'm sure the class will adopt high tech mains 'with all deliberate speed'.

Re: Dacron Main #5490
06/26/08 10:43 AM
06/26/08 10:43 AM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
Bob,
A couple of comments; first, do I understand you to acknowledge that the non-dacron main is faster? Wow!
Second, I take no penalty for having a non-dacron main. Our local PHRF organization has no restrictions on sail cloth.
To your points that I could choose to race one design or work to develop a one design fleet in the area; Using our club as a center point, there are 5 J/30's in mid to western lake Erie/Lake St. Clair that race: one in Cleveland (70 miles away), one in Lorain, Oh(50-60 miles away), one in Detroit (40 miles away) and two at the our local club (mine and one other). There have been and contiues to be attempts to rally the J/30's to race one design. As recently as 3 weeks ago, (after the "54 mile race"), I spoke at lenght with the other J/30 owner about trying to do just one J/30 event either this year or next. I doubt that we will be successful. We've attempted to rally support for doing one design at the 2008 Detroit NOODS - there was not enough interest. If we were lucky enough to put together a Lake Erie one design event, we would have to exempt the main sail cloth rule as most if not all do not have dacron mains - let alone deal with boats that don't have class #1's and boats that years ago cut their pole or their kites.

We are racing the boat PHRF and perfoming quite well and using that performance to encourge others to buy J/30's (looks like we might get one other J/30 at our club next year- dependent on the sale of his O'Day 34). Three boats isn't a fleet but it's a start.

And BTY, so I could keep the boat close to class configuration, a few years ago I appealed and won a rating change for J/30's on Lake Erie to reduce the penaly for the oversized chute since we already take a 3 second penalty for the pole (a class boat now carries 6 seconds of penalty). But to the point, during that appeal process, in 2004 there were only 12 J/30's listed with our PHRF organization (on all of Lake Erie). Those 12 boats are scattered over 300 miles, race in different areas and sail with significantly different agendas. Of those 12 boats, I have only actually seen 4 of them! And per the input from the folks at PHRF, most were modified in an attempt to reduce some or all of the 9 seconds of penalty the class boats carried. If you have constructive input or want to come out and help us to organize one design sailing on Lake Erie, please, we welcome your assistance.


And to your point of me racing one design, I would have to buy a trailer ($3500-$4000), pay $800 every time I want to haul the boat (in and out fee charged by my local marina) and tow the boat 250 miles to Chicago or 750 miles to Boston @ $4.00 per gallon and 7 miles per gallon for the truck. Would I do it? Probably; considering I spent just under $7k to truck my boat to Key West and back in 2006 only to break the boom after two days of racing.
I'd love to race one design. I'm sure I would learn to make the boat sail faster by watching,getting beat and learning from the experienced one design sailors.

But I won't do it with a Dacron Main!

I got one call from someone in Chicago several years ago asking me about the rule change on the head sail material. In that conversation I mentioned the issue of the main. I was asked if I would participate in Western Lake Michigan one design events if they waved the main rule. I said yes. I have never heard from the gentleman again.

I campaign and promote the boat, I've worked with local PHRF to make the boat more competitive. I work with local J/30 owners to attempt 1 design sailing. And now I'm working to try to take away one more barrier for local sailors to be interested in J-30's. I think you are quite a bit off base to say that "I'm playing a different game with a different set or rules" I'm playing in the same game with the cards that I'm dealt!

Re: Dacron Main #5491
06/26/08 02:16 PM
06/26/08 02:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 109
New York, NY
Ed Austin Offline
Senior Member
Ed Austin  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 109
New York, NY
As a previous J/30 owner for several years, I ran into the same issues with sail cloth. Since there was some one design to be had in Western Long Island Sound, I ended up with two sets of sails. I believe that the kevlar mains I had performed slightly better than the dacron mains. On of the benefits of the hi-tech sails is maintaining better shape over time. The last year I had the boat, I won our Wednesday night PHRF series with a 4 year old Kevlar main. One the other hand, I won BIRW in PHRF using a Dacron main with about 4 regattas on it.

Overall, if I still had my boat, I would prefer to have the flexiblity to choose mainsail material, but would not fight hard for it.

On a different note, the 0.5oz chute is essential for PHRF racing in light air venues. Someone said just unload all the crap off the boat. That doesn't really fix how the sail flies. In the light stuff the 0.75 may fill, but still sags while the 0.5 flies alot higher with better shape. On LIS you rate the same in PHRF with no sail limitations and a 1260lb weight limit as you rate in one-design with 1400lb weight limit, so it was easy for me to give up the weight for the spinnaker and other sails (especially for genoas before the rule change).

[This message has been edited by Ed Austin (edited 06-26-2008).]

Re: Dacron Main #5492
06/26/08 04:25 PM
06/26/08 04:25 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 851
New Orleans, LA, USA
David Erwin Offline
J/30 Class Co-President
David Erwin  Offline
J/30 Class Co-President
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 851
New Orleans, LA, USA
Benz, what is the price difference between Dakron and Kevlar or other advanced materials?

Re: Dacron Main #5493
06/27/08 09:15 AM
06/27/08 09:15 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 493
Chicago, Il. USA
D. Bartley Offline
Governor at Large
D. Bartley  Offline
Governor at Large
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 493
Chicago, Il. USA
Russ,

Come to Chicago in August for the Verve Cup. There will likely be enough boats for a One design start. We can probably do something to allow your main.


Dennis Bartley
Planxty, s/n 23994
hull 205
Re: Dacron Main #5494
06/27/08 12:19 PM
06/27/08 12:19 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 675
Maryland, USA
Bob Rutsch Offline
Governor at Large
Bob Rutsch  Offline
Governor at Large
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 675
Maryland, USA
I know Russ has been at it a long time having brought his J/30 halfway across the country. Like most of us he supports his club, the class and has made efforts to organize a fleet. I just don't think a 'throw down' is consistent with the compromises needed to encourage one-design racing.
Yes I do think a Kevlar/carbon mainsail is faster. Officially PHRF doesn't 'rate' sailcloth. But effectively they do through one-design ratings (ODR). Boats that do not comply with class rules usually do things to make their boats go faster. There are six ODR Hobie 33's racing in or near North Cape YC. I know you are going to tell me they all use Kevlar, but is there anything they doing differently that has made their fleet more successful?

Re: Dacron Main #5495
06/27/08 04:25 PM
06/27/08 04:25 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
Finally, some constructive dialog!
Dennis, thanks for the invite but I can't make it. In August we are committed to the Trans-Erie Race and another Club counter in which we took overall last year; the crew wants to defend our status in that one.

Bob, you are right, a throw down is a rather harsh position to take. I could have said nothing and ignored the request for dues as others do. I sent my first e-mail in an attempt to get someone's attention. I did that rather than, as in the past, watch as the one-designers, it seems as if in a vacumn, discussed how main sail cloth doesn't matter. Just this year, the association spent more time arguing over a couple of pounds of stove weight.

What I gather from the J/30 sailors that I talk to around these parts is, that they are indifferent to the association's efforts towards one design. Here, most everyone seems to be focused on how to maximize their efforts in PHRF (in Western lake Erie there are only 2 boats that sail with a OD rating). And I sit at NCYC, one boat away from the beginning of a fleet asking myself what can be done to attract more to buy J/30's or to attract some more to one design racing.

I doubt that changing the main cloth will get you anymore boats for the nationals but it might get me and some others closer to one design racing in our local areas. It appears that the association is somewhat myopic as it looks inward rather than really considering what it takes to build enthusiasm in areas away from the traditional one design fleets. That may not be true but it is a perception I carry.

If I still lived in Boston where I started with this boat and raced every Wed. with 6-10 other J-30's, I wouldn't care what the sails were so long as everyone raced with same ones.

I won't ask how you know that NCYC has 6 active Hobie 33's, but I will speak to the owners and ask for their input.
I helmed a Hobie 33 two years ago in their national event, I raced on one last Tuesday and I'm doing the Port Huron to Macinac on one. Being familiar with the fleet and the boat, I have some opinions as to what they're doing to promote 1 design(Rather than the kevlar main it's probalby the 1/2 oz kite), but I will ask them first hand and report back to you with thier input.

Re: Dacron Main #5496
07/07/08 05:45 PM
07/07/08 05:45 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 675
Maryland, USA
Bob Rutsch Offline
Governor at Large
Bob Rutsch  Offline
Governor at Large
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 675
Maryland, USA
Quote
Originally posted by Russ Atkinson:
I won't ask how you know that NCYC has 6 active Hobie 33's


No magic. I looked at the results of races at your club and noticed a number with the same PHRF ratings. Then I looked at your local PHRF rating organization which allowed me to list boats by club, took the clubs near you and ratings. Viola, six Hobie 33s. I sailed the demo model years ago and found it to be an interesting boat.

Anyway not trying to beat you up Russ, but there comes a point where some of us choose critical mass over personal preference and sail the boat most likely to achieve it.

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