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Re: Dacron Main #5497
07/18/08 06:01 PM
07/18/08 06:01 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 97
Bainbridge Island, WA
JBro Offline
Senior Member
JBro  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 97
Bainbridge Island, WA
This is a very interesring discussion. I'll throw a few additional thoughts, in no particular order, into the mix. While I'm not necessarily speaking for other owners, this does reflect what I've see out here from out here from my corner of the world (Seattle) as both an owner and active crew for many years:

- To get a OD start, no one here really complains about sail material as long as the OD dimensions are adhered to. And, I've see J/30s win with a wide variety of sail technology. One boat I drove did quite well despite a recut main that would be worthy of a photo caption contest on Sailing Anarchy.
- It's my opinion that a higher tech sail will provide better performance in a wider range of conditions. It will also hold shape (not necessarily construction...) longer. And, if used properly, it *may* provide a better return on investment over a dacron sail.
- While it's entertaining to read, unless you are a sailmaker or CAT 1 with a dacron main, I would strongly argue that on identically configured and sailed boats, a newer technology sail will perform better.
- On the other hand, I would also comfortably state that even with the best carbon string sails vs. dacron, if you botch a few tacks/gybes, get a bad start, or miss a shift benefitting a gybeset here or there, the dacron boat will probably win.
- I'll likely be in the market for a new suit of sails next year. When I buy, I'll likely buy carbon/aramid because the benefit/cost ratio is simply higher. High-tech materials and construction cost have come way down. Further, since about 60%+ of my racing will be PHRF with pervasive use of advanced sails, it simply makes sense to bring a gun to a gunfight. ;-)
- I used to sail a OD dinghy that went from all dacron to 49er style, reinforced mylar sails. The new look/performance potential GREW the fleet because it effectively moved the fleet forward. Sail cost remained the same. So - here's a thought: IF the restriction (and I'm honestly not saying it should be) were removed, it *might* draw more boats out of their slips (or owners away from other classes) to join a dynamic, high bang-for-buck class that gives flexibility to the owner to tweak a little.

It's my opinion that high-end sails are faster but not so much so that they would ruin a OD J/30 fleet. You have to sail well (boathandling and tactics) to do well and in my experience, that plays a more significant role in the overall results dynamic.

Just my $.02.

- Jeff
#426


- Jeff
J/30 #426 - Watusi
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Re: Dacron Main #5498
07/21/08 02:02 PM
07/21/08 02:02 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 114
Richmod, VA
Phil Offline
Senior Member
Phil  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 114
Richmod, VA
It seems that the cloth restriction's main purpose is to keep the cost of sailing as a OD Fleet as affordable as possible, with two kids in College and two more enroliing in the next two years I wholly support.

So if that's the intent, what is the difference in price between a Dacron Main and a alternative fabric ?

Re: Dacron Main #5499
07/23/08 09:27 AM
07/23/08 09:27 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 649
Marblehead, MA
dbows Offline
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dbows  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 649
Marblehead, MA
Quote
Originally posted by Phil:
It seems that the cloth restriction's main purpose is to keep the cost of sailing as a OD Fleet as affordable as possible, with two kids in College and two more enroliing in the next two years I wholly support.

So if that's the intent, what is the difference in price between a Dacron Main and a alternative fabric ?


I just had my North sailmaker quote me retail prices on Dacron vs their best 3DL main: Dacron 3k, Carbon ~5300

To me that is a huge difference for a sail that does not last twice as long nor is it twice as fast. Sexy factor is very high though (-:

David
#397

[This message has been edited by dbows (edited 07-23-2008).]

[This message has been edited by dbows (edited 07-23-2008).]


David Bows
Mallorca - Hull# 397
~~~~~_/)~_/)~~~~_/)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~
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Re: Dacron Main #5500
07/23/08 02:16 PM
07/23/08 02:16 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 268
Miami, Florida USA
the redhead Offline
Senior Member
the redhead  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 268
Miami, Florida USA
Remember that North sails warrants Kevlar sails IN HOURS, not days, weeks, years.... and I can assure you the HOURS a Carbon sail stands up would be no more than a Kevlar. But yeah, they are good to look at.

Re: Dacron Main #5501
07/23/08 03:32 PM
07/23/08 03:32 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
I have a UK Kevlar with Carbon Tapes main that went on the boat in June of 2004. It has been raced hard and has been badly flogged during some pretty ugly storms. It still has great shape. After every race the sail comes off the boat, is rolled and stored below. I could probably get one more year out of it but will replace it for next season. There are more durable, high tech sails than my tape drive (Quantum's Fusion X for example would probalby be a bit more durable and less expensive)

Re: Dacron Main #5502
07/25/08 11:20 AM
07/25/08 11:20 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 66
Washington, DC, USA
Mark Wolf Offline
Senior Member
Mark Wolf  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 66
Washington, DC, USA
I bought Quantum Fusion X three years ago; both Main and a 155% #1. These sails are used every week and the main is left on board. Just last week one of my neighbors asked me old are those sails...3 years old...no way, they look almost brand new. I will say they are in incredible shape as there designers intended. The cost for a Dacron main was $3,000 and the Fusion X was $4,100. I specifically bought Fusion X due to it's ability to hold shape and the projected life of the sail.

Re: Dacron Main #5503
07/25/08 12:29 PM
07/25/08 12:29 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 649
Marblehead, MA
dbows Offline
Senior Member
dbows  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 649
Marblehead, MA
Well I know if the class OD did not resrict to Dacron I would not have even considered it.

#397
David


David Bows
Mallorca - Hull# 397
~~~~~_/)~_/)~~~~_/)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~
Re: Dacron Main #5504
07/25/08 12:49 PM
07/25/08 12:49 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 66
Washington, DC, USA
Mark Wolf Offline
Senior Member
Mark Wolf  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 66
Washington, DC, USA
My opinion is not based on a recommendation to change the OD rules. I've owned #507 for 3.5 years. I think the class should do what is best to attract the greatest number of boats into OD racing. I tried to put my boat up for a loaner last year and ran into the infamous "stove" issue. I thank everyone for participating in the forum as it provides invaluable information to all of us (especially folks new to the J30).

Re: Dacron Main #5505
07/26/08 07:19 PM
07/26/08 07:19 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 45
Detroit, MI
RobC222 Offline
Senior Member
RobC222  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 45
Detroit, MI
Quote
Originally posted by dbows:
I just had my North sailmaker quote me retail prices on Dacron vs their best 3DL main: Dacron 3k, Carbon ~5300

To me that is a huge difference for a sail that does not last twice as long nor is it twice as fast. Sexy factor is very high though (-:

David
#397

AND:
Quote
Originally posted by Mark Wolf:

I bought Quantum Fusion X three years ago; both Main and a 155% #1. These sails are used every week and the main is left on board. Just last week one of my neighbors asked me old are those sails...3 years old...no way, they look almost brand new. I will say they are in incredible shape as there designers intended. The cost for a Dacron main was $3,000 and the Fusion X was $4,100. I specifically bought Fusion X due to it's ability to hold shape and the projected life of the sail.


Don't know about prices above, but my Quantum Fusion X cost $3,688 one month ago. Only a 20% premium over the Dacron. Sounds like a good tradeoff to me. Expect it to hold its shape much longer than the Dacron for a longer EFFECTIVE life.


[This message has been edited by RobC222 (edited 07-26-2008).]

Re: Dacron Main #5506
07/28/08 07:39 AM
07/28/08 07:39 AM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
Dave,
I am confused. In your post dated 7-23-08 you stated, "To me that is a huge difference for a sail that does not last twice as long nor is it twice as fast. Sexy factor is very high though". In your post dated 7-25-08 you say "Well I know if the class OD did not resrict to Dacron I would not have even considered it". Those two seem to contridict. Could you elaborate?
Thanks

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