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Spinnaker Pole Bridle Requirements dropped on 2005 Rules Update #8182
10/28/09 12:59 PM
10/28/09 12:59 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,669
Portsmouth, RI
Rhapsody #348 Offline OP
Past J/30 Class President
Rhapsody #348  Offline OP
Past J/30 Class President
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,669
Portsmouth, RI
There is a discussion about spinnaker poles in another thread at at this link where Michael Lusty found in the 2004 rules the requirement for a bridle was added. In 2005 when the class rules were updated to allow carbon poles, the bridal requirement disappeared. Bob Rutsch commented that he did not know if this was intentional, or an inadvertent omission when the rules updates were made.

Here are the applicable paragraphs from the 2004 and 2005 rules:

2004 Rules
5.11 Spinnaker Pole
.1 Material shall be of aluminum alloy extrusion and supplied only through a builder approved by the J/30 Class Association.
.2 Length from tip to tip of the pole shall not exceed 3810 mm nor when attached to the fitting at the mast, extend more than 3842 mm from the face of the mast.
.3 Bridle is required and the material is not restricted.
.4 Spinnaker pole end fittings can be of composite material such as the Forespar "ultra" series. A trigger mechanisms for holding the jaws open is not permitted.

2005 Rules & as currently worded in 2009 Rules
5.11 Spinnaker Pole
.1 Material shall be of either aluminum alloy extrusion or carbon fiber. The diameter of the an aluminum spinnaker pole shall not be less than 2 7/8 inches and a carbon fiber spinnaker pole shall have a uniform diameter through out of not be less than 2 1/2 inches.
.2 Length from tip to tip of the pole shall not exceed 3810 mm nor when attached to the fitting at the mast, extend more than 3842 mm from the face of the mast.
.3 Spinnaker pole end fittings can be of composite material such as the Forespar "ultra" series. A trigger mechanisms for holding the jaws open is not permitted.

Would the class measurer please investigate this and report back here? If it was removed intentionally, then the case is closed. If it was inadvertently dropped during the 2005 rules update, we should restore the rule as intended during the next time the rules are updated.

Re: Spinnaker Pole Bridle Requirements dropped on 2005 Rules Update [Re: Rhapsody #348] #8183
10/28/09 03:06 PM
10/28/09 03:06 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,234
Newport and Naples
Cap'n Vic Offline
Senior Member
Cap'n Vic  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,234
Newport and Naples
While we are at it ... I have a pole that I am converting for Phrf and it has snap on ends. You run the pole end against the ring and the hook pops up and locks ... now is this really different from the lock open? or is the "Lock Open" the only gizmo that is illegal. As I remember the lock open has a trigger to snap it shut once the hook has seated on the mast ring.

Attached Files
SnapPoleEnd.jpg [26.26 KBytes] - (575 downloads)
Pole snap end
Re: Spinnaker Pole Bridle Requirements dropped on 2005 Rules Update [Re: Cap'n Vic] #8184
10/28/09 03:33 PM
10/28/09 03:33 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 678
Maryland, USA
Bob Rutsch Offline
Governor at Large
Bob Rutsch  Offline
Governor at Large
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 678
Maryland, USA
The one that locks the pin open and closes it using a trigger was not deemed legal. The other Forespar end has an angled attachment for the trip line that can be pressed against the ring to open and snap the pole in place. This has been successfully measured at various NAs.

Re: Spinnaker Pole Bridle Requirements dropped on 2005 Rules Upda [Re: Rhapsody #348] #8187
10/29/09 04:23 PM
10/29/09 04:23 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 649
Marblehead, MA
dbows Offline
Senior Member
dbows  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 649
Marblehead, MA
Originally Posted by Rhapsody #348
There is a discussion about spinnaker poles in another thread at at this link where Michael Lusty found in the 2004 rules the requirement for a bridle was added. In 2005 when the class rules were updated to allow carbon poles, the bridal requirement disappeared. Bob Rutsch commented that he did not know if this was intentional, or an inadvertent omission when the rules updates were made.

Here are the applicable paragraphs from the 2004 and 2005 rules:

2004 Rules
5.11 Spinnaker Pole
.1 Material shall be of aluminum alloy extrusion and supplied only through a builder approved by the J/30 Class Association.
.2 Length from tip to tip of the pole shall not exceed 3810 mm nor when attached to the fitting at the mast, extend more than 3842 mm from the face of the mast.
.3 Bridle is required and the material is not restricted.
.4 Spinnaker pole end fittings can be of composite material such as the Forespar "ultra" series. A trigger mechanisms for holding the jaws open is not permitted.

2005 Rules & as currently worded in 2009 Rules
5.11 Spinnaker Pole
.1 Material shall be of either aluminum alloy extrusion or carbon fiber. The diameter of the an aluminum spinnaker pole shall not be less than 2 7/8 inches and a carbon fiber spinnaker pole shall have a uniform diameter through out of not be less than 2 1/2 inches.
.2 Length from tip to tip of the pole shall not exceed 3810 mm nor when attached to the fitting at the mast, extend more than 3842 mm from the face of the mast.
.3 Spinnaker pole end fittings can be of composite material such as the Forespar "ultra" series. A trigger mechanisms for holding the jaws open is not permitted.

Would the class measurer please investigate this and report back here? If it was removed intentionally, then the case is closed. If it was inadvertently dropped during the 2005 rules update, we should restore the rule as intended during the next time the rules are updated.


Umm... I bought a pole without a bridal - I checked the rules and noticed it was gone so I figured we had dropped it.


David Bows
Mallorca - Hull# 397
~~~~~_/)~_/)~~~~_/)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~
Re: Spinnaker Pole Bridle Requirements dropped on 2005 Rules Upda [Re: dbows] #10415
10/28/10 09:33 PM
10/28/10 09:33 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 26
honeymoon bay b.c.
Z
zeppo Offline
Senior Member
zeppo  Offline
Senior Member
Z
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 26
honeymoon bay b.c.
I have always had spinnaker poles with bridles, and my current boat #394 has bridles on the pole, however I was reading a book by a highly qualified world class racer, and he stated that if you can do away with the bridles do so. Well, I'm always willing to try anything minimalist with regards to race boat rigging and layout so I have re-rigged the pole so that the topping and downhaul both attach at the center of the pole. This all seems logical as the old bridle system was prone to tangling etc. but my new concern is whether the strength of the pole without end mounted bridles will be compromised.

Re: Spinnaker Pole Bridle Requirements dropped on 2005 Rules Upda [Re: Rhapsody #348] #10417
10/29/10 09:08 AM
10/29/10 09:08 AM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 159
grand rapids, mi
311 Temptation Offline
Western Great Lakes District Governor
311 Temptation  Offline
Western Great Lakes District Governor
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 159
grand rapids, mi
You will snap your pole quickly. Surely not made for use like that.

Normal load in column versus the point load...

To bypass bridles, connect the topping lift & downhaul shackles to the outboard pole ends, same place as the end of the bridles were connected. Once you get rid of your bridles you must dip jibe as you cannot end for end jibe without the bridles. I think the bridles, end for end jibes and single sheets are a total system very well suited to the J/30.


Dell Todd
#311 Temptation
Holland MI
Re: Spinnaker Pole Bridle Requirements dropped on 2005 Rules Upda [Re: 311 Temptation] #10418
10/29/10 10:17 AM
10/29/10 10:17 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,669
Portsmouth, RI
Rhapsody #348 Offline OP
Past J/30 Class President
Rhapsody #348  Offline OP
Past J/30 Class President
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,669
Portsmouth, RI
I've seen carbon poles with the center positioned D-rings and the bridles. I did not like the look of how the pole bent with the center d-rings and for Rhapsody had a carbon pole built with bridles attached in the normal manner at the ends. The bridles were made with spectra and have bungy cord inside the the spectra core so the bridles lay flat on the pole when not in use. It attaches to the topping lift and foreguy just like the old aluminum pole.

Re: Spinnaker Pole Bridle Requirements dropped on 2005 Rules Update [Re: Rhapsody #348] #10421
10/29/10 11:51 AM
10/29/10 11:51 AM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 678
Maryland, USA
Bob Rutsch Offline
Governor at Large
Bob Rutsch  Offline
Governor at Large
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 678
Maryland, USA
I concur with 311. The load applied by the foreguy attached at the center is likely to bend an aluminum pole. As noted in Carbon pole sizing I'd setup like Rhapsody with a bridle especially in breeze.

Re: Spinnaker Pole Bridle Requirements dropped on 2005 Rules Update [Re: Bob Rutsch] #10427
10/29/10 08:00 PM
10/29/10 08:00 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 649
Marblehead, MA
dbows Offline
Senior Member
dbows  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 649
Marblehead, MA
My carbon pole has the d rings in the middle with no issue and we have had the chute up in 25+ with no flex. I highly doubt Forte would build a pole like this if it would not hold up. The pole is only 6 1/2 feet from the center - that would have to be a hell of a lot of load to snap off - particularly with the guy twinged down really hard.

The D rings are MUCH easier to handle and the pole will stand up to anything we sail in week in and week out. I would never messing up that sexy carbon with an old school bridal (-:

DB


David Bows
Mallorca - Hull# 397
~~~~~_/)~_/)~~~~_/)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~
Re: Spinnaker Pole Bridle Requirements dropped on 2005 Rules Update [Re: Rhapsody #348] #10429
10/30/10 02:51 PM
10/30/10 02:51 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 678
Maryland, USA
Bob Rutsch Offline
Governor at Large
Bob Rutsch  Offline
Governor at Large
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 678
Maryland, USA
I suppose my experience watching the carbon pole bend (2.5" Forte with center D-rings)is because we don't use twings, so much more tension on the foreguy. I also explains why I see boats like Smiles with twings on not even bothering to attach their foreguy.



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