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Re: Main Sail Material [Re: Russ Atkinson] #8197
10/30/09 05:55 PM
10/30/09 05:55 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,602
Portsmouth, RI
Rhapsody #348 Offline
Past J/30 Class President
Rhapsody #348  Offline
Past J/30 Class President
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,602
Portsmouth, RI
Originally Posted by Russ Atkinson
....Just please don't use the cost arguement.
Bill Kneller is going to have two sails. How does that fit with the cost arguement?


Russ - I'm not obligated to buy a sail with different material. I'm buying it with a goal of collecting data to support the argument for a potential rule change. I also was able to sell a "boat load" of old sails on this forum that helps defray the cost. Just because I can afford to buy another sail, doesn't mean I should impose the requirement on others. I still support the OD rules and plan to race in OD events using class legal sails I already own. If it turns out that Vectron is good material supported by cost and performance data, then I'll suggest the class consider it as an alternative to Dacron.

Rules changes should be based on a broad review of J/30 owners with transparency. That's why we post the information on this forum. The 2008 vote I believe was representative of the sentiment for most of the people expressing opinions on this board. If you go back and do a search for changes in head sail material, you'll see that it took a while for the people to reach consensus on this matter.

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Re: Main Sail Material [Re: Rhapsody #348] #8198
10/30/09 07:38 PM
10/30/09 07:38 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 379
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 379
Rockwood, MI, USA
Bill,
Please know that I accept majority rule. Too, Im aware that I'm doing a pretty good job of leaving the one design racers with the perception that I'm calling their baby ugly. To that I apologize as you don't know how badly I want to come play. I also realize that I could go out and buy a Class legal main, but I won't. And you are right, it takes time to build concensus for change.

Unfortunatley my frustration is showing. I know I poked pretty hard last year when I started this thread but I got little satisfaction from the majority of the reponses regarding change.. responses anywhere from the sail doesn't make a difference to go race a Hobie because there are 6 in your club.
It didn't help when just recently I saw the thread that included the cost of a carbon pole and then recalled the issues argued over 12 lbs of stove weight. I'm sorry, I don't get that the class can approve $1200 of cost to save a few lbs of bow weight or that the original stove that came with my 1986 vintage boat might not be class legal... and at the same time argue that main sail material requires a cost vs performance analysis.
In my mind, the class deserves a subtle poke

Re: Dacron Main [Re: Russ Atkinson] #8202
10/31/09 12:51 PM
10/31/09 12:51 PM
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 121
Melbourne, FL, USA
Rob Van Name Offline
Senior Member
Rob Van Name  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 121
Melbourne, FL, USA
I went with a non-dacron main for Nordic Star for longevity reasons. My current racing is PHRF in club races against another very well sailed J/30 with a dacron main.

Re: Main Sail Material [Re: Russ Atkinson] #8203
10/31/09 05:06 PM
10/31/09 05:06 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 649
Marblehead, MA
dbows Offline
Senior Member
dbows  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 649
Marblehead, MA
The resistance comes when you are deciding what it is going to cost OTHER people to participate in the class. When you are a member of the BOG you have to think about EVERYONE who participates, not just your own situation. It IS about cost.

As for the carbon pole argument - it is not really the same since it does not need to be replaced every 3 years. When you buy it once you are done - kind of like the #3 (-:


David Bows
Mallorca - Hull# 397
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Re: Main Sail Material [Re: dbows] #8214
11/02/09 05:23 PM
11/02/09 05:23 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 669
Maryland, USA
Bob Rutsch Offline
Governor at Large
Bob Rutsch  Offline
Governor at Large
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 669
Maryland, USA
One of my favorite games: 'wack-a-mole' and look what popped up again!

A J/30 spinnaker pole should last a lifetime. Ours is 25+ years old and serviceable. Many are replaced after being accidentally lost overboard. You can save a few pounds using carbon and composite ends. A lighter pole may be easier to handle. Some class members can justify the higher cost. The rest decided they were at no disadvantage and came to a consensus to change the rules. There are similar stories for the solid vang and windward sheeting traveler. That's how classes work.

Every J/30 came with a stove or an oven. Ours likewise is 25+ years old and works just fine. Apparently some rust to dust and you can't buy a new one that fits. Somebody shows up at the NA's without one and the measurer has to decide what to do. Let everyone tear out a cruising amenity or find some accommodation. It has little to do with the 12 lbs. Classes have rules that members anticipate will be enforced fairly.

Sailcloth restrictions have been debated as early as J/30 Journal #2 in April 1981. It took four years for Class Rules to allow Mylar in the genoa and twenty-four to allow Kevlar laminates. Eighteen years to change to an unrestricted laminated jib. I recall mainsail material was a controversial topic at the 1987 NA's at Newport. It may be that one day most will determine that the benefit exceeds the cost. It will take a champion of the cause, as we seem to have here, plus facts, logic, maybe even an emotional appeal. It will be also take a consensus majority of class members.

If you wish to sail in a class you accept the compromises, as well as the slow, maybe even capricious way their one-design rules evolve.

Re: Main Sail Material [Re: Bob Rutsch] #8215
11/02/09 08:44 PM
11/02/09 08:44 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 370
Squamish, British Columbia
NaturalHigh Offline
Senior Member
NaturalHigh  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 370
Squamish, British Columbia
I don't have much chance of racing one design out here, but I know after doing some shopping, there is no fricken way I could afford a high-tec racing main to be competitive. I am just new to this game and don't have deep pockets.

I am going to be saving for a new main, and while I would love to have an uber sexy 3DL or the like for PHRF racing, I don't know if the benefits would pay off. I am more keen on the big distance races where one might run into heavy weather, or need to play the big currents. When I am sailing in the dark scared crapless, I am not likely to be thinking about the performance advantages of a high tech main.

But, if there is a material out there that is near the same cost as a good Dacron, then I would consider it if its usefull life is similar.

Re: Main Sail Material [Re: NaturalHigh] #8228
11/03/09 06:00 PM
11/03/09 06:00 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 379
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 379
Rockwood, MI, USA
I can certainly say I've given an emotional appeal. As well,I've attempted to argue for logic. Please see a portion of my e-mail string with my sail maker Skip Dieball (if you aren't familiar with who Skip is you can Google him for further reference). This string won't settle any arguements but will add additional "facts" to supplement those from my 10/30/09 posting on this forum topic.
I'm sure those that are in favor of staying with Dacron can find thier justification in Skip's comments.


From: Russ Atkinson [mailto:ratkinson@ellisontechnologies.com]
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 12:02 PM
To: Skip Dieball
Subject: Main sail material

Thanks for the input.
A few years back, in your work with the T10 fleet you were not in favor of allowing high tech mains.
Would you have that same view for the J/30. And if so, should I be going back to Dacron on wildcat?
Also, why is it more important in the head sail then in the main?
Russ

From: Skip Dieball [mailto:skip@dieballsailing.com]
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2009 1:05 PM
To: Russ Atkinson
Subject: FW:

I'm mixed on the "requirement" of specifying material. Clearly the J/30 enjoys the aramid sail. When the class looks at factors that impact participation they often look to sail inventory in keeping the costs down. The unfortunate thing is that Poly/Dacron/Pentex all have come up considerably in price. They still have a better ultimate life, but the performance life is about the same. At some point the T10s will go aramid in the mains strictly due to costs being close to the same, not to mention that string sails are coming down in price as that technology is further developed.

The little jibs in the T10 and J105s need to go through a large range. Both classes have A/P jibs, meaning they go from 0-30 knots. With that in mind, you have to have an extremely straight back end of the sail and low stretch through the range. That is primarily why the Aramid works so well in the jibs. The argument could be made for genoas and mainsails as well, but with longer, stiffer battens in the main, the Dacron does a good job and is relatively responsive to halyard and Cunningham to open the leech too.

Hope this helps. - Skip

Re: Main Sail Material [Re: Russ Atkinson] #8239
11/04/09 08:04 PM
11/04/09 08:04 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 97
Bainbridge Island, WA
JBro Offline
Senior Member
JBro  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 97
Bainbridge Island, WA
This is an interesting discussion. Obviously, the debate revolves around:
- Material cost
- Production cost
- Longevity
- Performance impact
- Cost of ownership (initial as well as longterm)

However, I will offer another factor: the future of the class and it's marketability. Honestly, if I hadn't sailed a J/30 enough to know what a great boat it is, I would have likely looked at other options (in fact, I did initially).

J/30s see most of their action under PHRF racing. I know pretty well that sailors look at the boats between starts, drifting waiting for starts, etc. And, I cannot recall hearing any crewmate saying, "wow - look at the main. I love a dacron main. They look fast and fun." In fact, when I've heard comments that dacron is actually more desirable in some circumstances for it's controlability, it's a seriously hard sell for anyone. If it was, leading grand prix boats would use it.

The fact is, low cost or not (and we're seeing, actually, not), equal performance or not, dacron is the past. Unless someone is nostalgic and just likes that temporary feel of crisp dacron, dacron is something that many equate to outdated.

Whatever the case, I think it's prudent to ask whether simply mandating a dacron is good for the future of the platform. Stick with the past ('cause that's whaht we've done) or consider that a little innovation could help carry the boat forward in it's appeal to new buyers for the next 20 years. Saving current owners a few bucks won't matter if the fleet dwindles away as prospective buyers seek out more innovative, sexy options.

In fact, I've seen fleets where this type of rule change actually breathes new life into the fleet (excitement, new learning curve for some, etc.)

Someone said "emotional appeal" ;-) So, maybe this counts? I will, however, refrain from saying "it's for the children".

- Jeff


- Jeff
J/30 #426 - Watusi
Re: Main Sail Material [Re: JBro] #8240
11/04/09 09:45 PM
11/04/09 09:45 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 57
St. Margarets Bay, Nova Scotia
Groovin Offline
Senior Member
Groovin  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 57
St. Margarets Bay, Nova Scotia
I agree Jeff
Allow the fleet to grow and not stand still. I believe that it will increase the opportunity of the boat and make it even more fun. Plus i believe one sail we got with our boat is a radical main. I will have to dig it out.

Re: Main Sail Material [Re: Groovin] #8243
11/05/09 01:15 PM
11/05/09 01:15 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 649
Marblehead, MA
dbows Offline
Senior Member
dbows  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 649
Marblehead, MA
Bottom line is that the BOG represents its members so if enough people want the change it should be considered for change. Maybe setup a poll?


David Bows
Mallorca - Hull# 397
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