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Re: Main Sail Material [Re: dbows] #8245
11/05/09 01:22 PM
11/05/09 01:22 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 97
Bainbridge Island, WA
JBro Offline
Senior Member
JBro  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 97
Bainbridge Island, WA
David-

I think that's a great idea. Is there a tool on the site here to produce a poll? If not, I have a fair bit of experience with them and could set one up.

Also - a couple thoughts:

- it would be great to send a tickler to the registered users to drive widespread participation.
- we're at an interesting time for this technology. The price of a leading, brandname loft's dacron main is reasonably comparable to a hi-tech (read: carbon/aramid) sail. I don't think most people know this. So, as part of a polling process, folks should at least know the facts. If we were polling for perceptions, that's one thing. For something like this, we're asking for guidance based on objective data vs. myth.

Didn't someone (sorry in advance if I missed this - asking before re-reading the entire thread) compile a list/spreadsheet of sail quotes/prices submitted by members?

Thanks,
- Jeff

Last edited by JBro; 11/05/09 01:31 PM.

- Jeff
J/30 #426 - Watusi
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Setting up a poll: Main Sail Material [Re: JBro] #8249
11/05/09 03:03 PM
11/05/09 03:03 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,656
Portsmouth, RI
Rhapsody #348 Offline
Past J/30 Class President
Rhapsody #348  Offline
Past J/30 Class President
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,656
Portsmouth, RI
Jeff - A poll can be created in an initial post only, although I can log in with Admin rights and put the poll in a reply. It's probably best to keep the poll in its own thread, and keep the discussion in this thread - I can provide a cross reference link. The poll can be left in a sticky at the top of the forum so it is easy to find. It's best to define what you want in the poll first, because once the poll is created, it can't be changed.

So - decide what questions you want to ask, decide if the answers are yes/no, multiple choice, or vote for more than 1 item. Each question can have a separate type (e.g. yes/no, multiple choice, vote for x of y). We can also put a time limit so the poll closes at a certain time and date.

Either you can set this up in a new post, or I can. Probably best to throw out what questions to ask, get some feedback on the questions, and setup the poll.

Edit: I don't recall a spreadsheet with consolidated prices, but there were various posts in this thread where people contributed price information.

Last edited by Rhapsody #348; 11/06/09 06:44 AM. Reason: Added info on prices in thread
Re: Setting up a poll: Main Sail Material [Re: Rhapsody #348] #8263
11/06/09 10:01 AM
11/06/09 10:01 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 649
Marblehead, MA
dbows Offline
Senior Member
dbows  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 649
Marblehead, MA
All I really care about is if people think the class should allow the sails. The cost is the cost. Since we do not have a large OD class, the cost is going to vary from sailmaker to sailmaker and region to region so I am not sure of the benefit of posting all the different cost. A dacron from one sail loft could be the same cost as a carbon from another - it just depends on so many factors ....

I think there other compelling reasons to allow non-woven mains vs the cost benefit argument.



David Bows
Mallorca - Hull# 397
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Re: Setting up a poll: Main Sail Material [Re: dbows] #8264
11/06/09 10:12 AM
11/06/09 10:12 AM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
The suggestion of a poll is a good one. Properly constructed it can indeed provide valuable information that can lend to any BOG discussion/decision on allowing Araimid mains.
As you move towards developing a list of questions for your poll, I offer some commentary.

First, I coach my employees that in business situations; never, never attempt to solve problems until you clearly identify the problem. So the question I ask is; what problem are you trying to solve? I'll put that stake in the ground and circle back to it in a minute.

Second, in medical and psychological tests as well as with polls, the results can be skewed or wrong conclusions can be drawn if the studies aren't constructed properly. Or, the inverse of that is that one can skew results to their desires by manipulating the test or the questions. Again, I'll leave that stake for a moment.

My third comment (stake in the ground) is relative to "majority rule" and the function of the BOG. I'll remind that this organization is not a democracy; it is, as with our own federal government, a representative democracy. There is a big difference in the two. As such, the individual members of the BOG have two responsibilities. The first is to represent the interests and desires of their constituents or individual regions and secondly, to make decisions that are in the best interest of the Class. Please know that those two responsibilities may not always be congruent. A point to this third commentary is to say that by allowing a poll to determine any decision, the BOG would be abdicating its responsibility.

As much as I want the Class to allow Aramid mains, I also recognize my bias. As with my bias, the BOG needs to sort out the other bias arguments. I question if a yes/no poll can do that.

Now back to my stakes. I offer that the question the BOG should be asking itself is not whether or not to allow Aramid mains. I believe the question to ask is whether Arimid mains are good for the class. There is a significant difference in those two questions. While both questions should be followed with a why, the first could be argued with a strong emphasis on cost. The second, is far more relative to the perpetuity of the class and not necessarily so impacted by cost.

Re: Setting up a poll: Main Sail Material [Re: Russ Atkinson] #8266
11/06/09 02:45 PM
11/06/09 02:45 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 97
Bainbridge Island, WA
JBro Offline
Senior Member
JBro  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 97
Bainbridge Island, WA
@dbows: I couldn't agree more. I think there are many more dimensions to this than cost. Checking in with the community to get some perspective will help arrive at that. Cost is simply one aspect that could impact a decision on this.

@Russ Atkinson: Great points Russ. All well articulated and factors to keep in mind when trying to get some input from the community that could affect a BoG proposal/decision.

To be clear, it certainly wasn't my sentiment that a poll would make a decision. It's just a useful tool to take the temperature of owners feelings at a specific point in time.

Beyond the poll, I think some constructive, objective presentation of the issues/facts would be a good starting point. One that represents owners, sail industry experts, as well as other classes that have faced this decision. Once that knowledge is objectively presented for folks to analyze, then a poll will just help determine to relative importance and collective opinion of the community.

I think informed feedback is the best type of feedback. So, I believe learning should be part of the process.


- Jeff
J/30 #426 - Watusi
Re: Setting up a poll: Main Sail Material [Re: JBro] #8271
11/06/09 05:25 PM
11/06/09 05:25 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 649
Marblehead, MA
dbows Offline
Senior Member
dbows  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 649
Marblehead, MA
@Russ your point about representation is correct.

I represent my fleet which has different issues than say one that has had a long established OD fleet. We are in the process of growing the fleet from a group of PHRF boats and new boats to the area. The challenge is to take an owner that has always used Araimid in PHRF and then tell them "in this sandbox we play with dacron". It is a leap to say they will go back to dacron just to participate in OD. With an established OD fleet they start from a OD mentality then work into PHRF - fleet building happens in reverse.


David Bows
Mallorca - Hull# 397
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Re: Setting up a poll: Main Sail Material [Re: dbows] #8275
11/06/09 06:04 PM
11/06/09 06:04 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,234
Newport and Naples
Cap'n Vic Offline
Senior Member
Cap'n Vic  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,234
Newport and Naples
I vote "best we can for PHRF FIRST" ... after all we have to compete against PHRF boats more than ODers and the J30 Phrfs in light air are a double handicap.

Re: Dacron Main [Re: Russ Atkinson] #8523
12/06/09 11:08 PM
12/06/09 11:08 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 42
Seattle, WA
gmo Offline
Senior Member
gmo  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 42
Seattle, WA
Russ,

I'm planning on getting a new Dacron main in Jan, so I'll do the experiment with you.

My current main is a 10 year old dacron, which isn't worth a whole lot anymore. I'm buying dacron, because my crew and I are all pretty new to racing, and we still have plenty of "oops"s. I'm figuring a dacron main will put up with our learning better. Also, we aren't good enough to reap the benefit from the newer materials.

I fully intend to by a new laminate main in a few years, as at least half the other J30s in the Seattle area sail laminate mains already. When I do upgrade, I'll have a practice sail left over, which I wouldn't have for long if I bought a laminate now.

Re: Dacron Main [Re: gmo] #8525
12/07/09 12:13 AM
12/07/09 12:13 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,656
Portsmouth, RI
Rhapsody #348 Offline
Past J/30 Class President
Rhapsody #348  Offline
Past J/30 Class President
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,656
Portsmouth, RI
Check out Steve Buzbee's ad for a North Main from Benz Faget (New Orleans loft) only used at the 2009 NAs. I have the same Main 1 year older - it is a good sail.

Re: Dacron Main [Re: gmo] #8526
12/07/09 08:28 AM
12/07/09 08:28 AM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
Great, lets do it.
First, you may want to consider the main that Bill Kneller referenced, particularly if you are looking for something to get started with and as well, if you are planning on upgrading soon. Sounds as if that sail is in "almost new" condition.

As for testing, I would suggest a couple of things. First, put marks on your main halyard and put marks on the back of your boom so that you have reference points for halyard tention and outhaul settings. I would also suggest we test at the beginning of each season.
If you are buying a new sail, your sailmaker can tell you what pictures to take. If you need some guidance, let me know and I'll get the info to you. I don't think my sailmaker would have any issues with doing the comparisons for us. So in the spring, you can e-mail the photos to me.

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