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Re: Dacron Main [Re: Bob Rutsch] #8984
02/15/10 02:57 PM
02/15/10 02:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 186
Barrington, RI
cstoddard Offline
Senior Member
cstoddard  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 186
Barrington, RI
I've started a discussion with Steve Thurston on this subject.We figure Race life on a darcon main if its rolled is about three years assuming about 30 races per year. Steve thinks that a carbon main would last about 5 years under the same conditions
The carbon main would be lighter so that would provide an advantage in higher winds.
He estimates cost to be about 25% more assuming a base list price of 3K for dacron
Now for the real kicker a new carbon main would be no faster than a new dacron main in one design racing (it would be up to the crew)

On chutes a 1/2 oz would hold its shape better in the real light stuff but the material is no were near as tought as the 3/4 oz stuff we currently use so a lot of care would have to be used by the crew in handling it(ie don't snag it or step on it!)

More to follow

Charlie


Charlie Stoddard
Falcon #229
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Re: Dacron Main [Re: cstoddard] #8994
02/16/10 02:07 PM
02/16/10 02:07 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 392
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 392
Rockwood, MI, USA
My exerience with high tech mains matches Steve Thruston's input. I bought my first one in 1998. It was a kevlar main with kevlar tapes (UK). In 2004, my second was a kevlar main with carbon tapes; again (UK)- we won our club season overall with this sail in 2008. I bought my third one which we hoisted in 2009. It is a Fusion X by Quantum. While the carbon taped sail was at the high end of price at the time, the Quantum Fusion X is not the most expensive sail from Quantum and probalby is less than the 25% premium over dacron.

Regarding performance, I admit to the placibo effect. Just kidding, but I do say this to my crew - "the bottom is spray painted and sanded smooth with 2000 grit sandpaper, the sails are hi-tech and in great shape. Gentlemen- there are no excuses, performace is now dependent on sailing skills - sail like champions". Too, my competitors believe I have an edge with my bottom and my sails and they are thus already beaten when they leave the dock!

Back to Mr. Thurston's input; he seems to support my arguement on cost. If you are buying a sail for racing, even at a 25% premium, the useful life of the high tech sail (5 years) more than offsets the the lower cost of the Dacron sail at (3 years useful life). My simple math says; with 25% premium, 4 years useful life on the high tech sail is a breakeven compared to dacron.


Re: Dacron Main [Re: Russ Atkinson] #9001
02/17/10 05:07 PM
02/17/10 05:07 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 675
Maryland, USA
Bob Rutsch Offline
Governor at Large
Bob Rutsch  Offline
Governor at Large
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 675
Maryland, USA
Because sail regularly, we try to efficiently manage and care for our inventory. Chesapeake Bay YRA schedules more than twenty days of weekend racing for J/30s, many with several races per day, plus several long distance races. Annapolis YC runs a twenty week Wednesday Night Series, quite serious for some, though we tend to use it to find and train crew. Our boat is also day sailed and cruised so a mainsail is hoisted 40-50 days a season. Maybe not as much some, but I work or a living and have kids with sports and activities.

We time sail purchases to coincide with the J/30 NA's. If possible a new main and genoa are saved for a second NA or only used for major regattas like the NOOD. After several major events, they go into regular weekend rotation for about three years and are then either sold or used for Wednesday nights, deliveries, cruising, and the occasional weekend gear buster. Typically we have two, but often three mainsails on hand.

For example, we had a new Dacron main for the 2002 NA's at Cedar Point YC that we saved for the 2003 NA's in Annapolis. It became our regular weekend sail between 2004 and 2006, for a total of 55 races. Still in good condition, it was sold for 40% of original cost. That's two championships, three years, plus residual value, 3+ years/(1-40%) = 5+ years. The previous main, new for the 1999 NA's was our primary weekend sail for three years. We got five more years out of it on Wednesday nights, for a total of about 80-100 races before being sold for 20% of its original cost, 8 years/(1-20%)= 10 years.

Is there any salvage value or after life for a five-year-old carbon/Kevlar? Are these sails only used for racing or for deliveries and cruising too?

Re: Dacron Main [Re: Bob Rutsch] #9005
02/18/10 06:28 PM
02/18/10 06:28 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 392
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 392
Rockwood, MI, USA
In response to your question regarding salvage life, neither of my two older mains (carbon tape/kevlar or kevlar tape/kevlar) would have a salvage value. The carbon tape sail that we retired at the end of our 2008 season is still good for day sailing, delivery and crew training races. But I wouldn't have the heart to take money for it.
I can't compare to your sail program. We have a 15 race Wednesday nigt series that is taken very serious by our club along with a regatta series that is another 14 races. We race in 6-8 of those regatta series races along with all 15 Wed races plus two long distance races (off shore - type) one 140 mile and one 53 mile race. One main is used for all races for 4-5 years. If and when we start doing Nationals, we'll propably consider a two main program such as yours.

Dacron Main Poll Results Complete 1 April 2010 [Re: Russ Atkinson] #9227
04/04/10 07:10 PM
04/04/10 07:10 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,656
Portsmouth, RI
Rhapsody #348 Offline
Past J/30 Class President
Rhapsody #348  Offline
Past J/30 Class President
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,656
Portsmouth, RI
The poll about Dacron Main Sails was completed 1 April 2010.

Here's what I'd like to ask people in the class to do. Please post your interpretation of the voting results. This is not a "black and white" situation and I think we should hear interpretations of the results.

Re: Dacron Main Poll Results Complete 1 April 2010 [Re: Rhapsody #348] #9229
04/05/10 08:21 AM
04/05/10 08:21 AM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 392
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 392
Rockwood, MI, USA
Bill
Two quick question; First, could a person have filled out the poll more than once? And if so, can that circumstance be identified and the poll adjusted accordingly?
The reasons I ask is that the last time I looked, there were less than 50 respondants which represents maybe 10% of the entire fleet - which in one sense is a low sampling. As well, with only about 50 respondants, a few duplicates could skew things in one direction.

Re: Dacron Main Poll Results Complete 1 April 2010 [Re: Russ Atkinson] #9232
04/05/10 09:10 AM
04/05/10 09:10 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,656
Portsmouth, RI
Rhapsody #348 Offline
Past J/30 Class President
Rhapsody #348  Offline
Past J/30 Class President
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,656
Portsmouth, RI
Russ,

The only way someone could vote twice is with 2 different accounts to login. As far as I know, I'm the only one with multiple accounts (Rhapsody #348, J/30 and Bill is Testing). I only voted with the Rhapsody account.

from a sampling standpoint - 50 respondents is actually pretty good on a statistical poll. Of all the J/30 owners, there are 235 registered with forum accounts.

Re: Dacron Main Poll Results Complete 1 April 2010 [Re: Rhapsody #348] #9233
04/05/10 10:50 AM
04/05/10 10:50 AM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 392
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 392
Rockwood, MI, USA
Thanks Bill,
21% is qood. I was assuming 50 out of 500 J/30's built.
Thinking about it more, 235 registered forum accounts is also pretty good.

Re: Dacron Main Poll Results Complete 1 April 2010 [Re: Russ Atkinson] #9234
04/05/10 06:15 PM
04/05/10 06:15 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,234
Newport and Naples
Cap'n Vic Offline
Senior Member
Cap'n Vic  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,234
Newport and Naples
what the poll didn't survey was the basic question ...
Are you a cruiser, racer or day sailor?
There are a lot of owners out there who just like the boat because it handles well, and really have no plans to mount the effort to put together a race program.

Race programs are an exponential time and resource consuming effort.

The results may reflect a way higher percentage of responses from active racers ... who are the ones affected.





Re: Dacron Main Poll Results Complete 1 April 2010 [Re: Cap'n Vic] #9235
04/05/10 07:03 PM
04/05/10 07:03 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,656
Portsmouth, RI
Rhapsody #348 Offline
Past J/30 Class President
Rhapsody #348  Offline
Past J/30 Class President
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,656
Portsmouth, RI
Vic - I concur, but it's the racers who are concerned with the class rules. People who only cruise will do what they want if they aren't worried about limitations. By the way - I've seen the racing rules of sailing, the Nautical rules of the road, and the COLREGS, but never run across the Cruising Rules of Sailing smile

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