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5.6.2 Tiller and tiller extension. Custom tiller for sale #9102
03/18/10 02:06 PM
03/18/10 02:06 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 678
Maryland, USA
Bob Rutsch Offline OP
Governor at Large
Bob Rutsch  Offline OP
Governor at Large
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 678
Maryland, USA
This is a discussion of the J/30 rule on the tiller and tiller extension. I am not the measurer, thus not attempting to make a ruling, only considering how the rule would handle the item posted for sale. If you have not arrived at this thread from this posting, For Sale: Custom Laminated Tillers, the listing is for a beautifully laminated mahogany and ash curved tiller, which is split down the middle with ash and mahogany stiffeners glued in. Seller claims the tiller is light (3 lbs) and strong.

As noted on the original post, I am not sure I have any problem with this tiller, but do encourage class members to be vigilant about complying with our rules. The current rule is 5.6.2 Tiller and tiller extension may be altered in length and material, but must be equivalent to that provided by the builder.

How would a measurer apply this somewhat fuzzy language to this or other tillers? Altering length is clearly allowed, that is shorter or longer. Since the rule is silent on width and height, one may assume they must remain the same as that supplied by the builder.

The questions involve two words, alter and equivalent.

Since the original builder supplied tiller was made of wood, must the tiller be wood before it is altered? Is the hollow tiller a reasonable alteration? The builder supplied tiller extension was stainless steel, while most modern versions are not. This may present a problem for the many replacements now in use since it would be hard to say they were altered.

Equivalent, is defined in Dictionary.com as: equal in value, measure, force, effect, significance, etc.; corresponding in position, function, etc.; something that performs substantially the same function as another thing in substantially the same way.

I wasn't surprised to find this rule had been revised. Version dated April 1982 (Journal #3): "5.6.2 Tiller and tiller extension may be altered in length and material, but must be equivalent in weight (italics mine) to that provided by the builder." Those words disappeared in the next new revision I could find, dated January 1, 1985 (Journal #6).

Rule writers went from requiring that they be the same weight to just the same. So does that mean the hollow, lighter tiller is ok? Also, while I have never heard anyone complain about curved tillers, unless the builder supplied them, I'd be hard pressed to say they are the same, so this rule might need a tune up to allow them.

Here are some ideas for clarifying this either with a measurer's ruling (quick and easy) or a rule change (time consuming). I'd like to see tiller material specified as wood, laminated wood, or wood with fiber glass reinforcing. Any length, straight or curved. Maybe a minimum weight, though I doubt there is more than a pound between the original tiller and the one Luke has built. The heavy-duty stainless brackets and bolts that attach the tiller to the rudder should be required.

I'd make the tiller extension optional and unrestricted, except possibly in length. The mainsheet and traveler limit the tiller length. Limiting the extension length would keep skippers in the cockpit where they belong.

Re: 5.6.2 Tiller and tiller extension. Custom tiller for sale [Re: Bob Rutsch] #9105
03/19/10 07:34 AM
03/19/10 07:34 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 186
Barrington, RI
cstoddard Offline
Senior Member
cstoddard  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 186
Barrington, RI
Bob

In thinking about this as measurer there is a a large number of varations on tillers and extentions out there. I agree we need to tune up the rule My thoughts are the metal brackets must remain. no restrictions on weight and length hiking extentions are open

Since you have done such a nice job on the research on this and have thought thru the wording of the change You know have the task of writing out the wording you would like to see in the rules YOU get the task of making the proposal for change

Charlie

Last edited by cstoddard; 03/19/10 07:53 AM.

Charlie Stoddard
Falcon #229
Re: 5.6.2 Tiller and tiller extension. Custom tiller for sale [Re: cstoddard] #9107
03/19/10 12:25 PM
03/19/10 12:25 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 678
Maryland, USA
Bob Rutsch Offline OP
Governor at Large
Bob Rutsch  Offline OP
Governor at Large
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 678
Maryland, USA
Glad to a write a straw proposal. Before doing so, do class members feel the tiller itself should be restricted to wood?

APS lists this J/30 laminated wood tiller (HM1252F shape B) 1/4" mahogany/ash, with four coats of varnish, 54 1/2", with 4" rise, and 2 3/8" x 2 1/2" butt for $107.98.

Or should we allow something like this $800-900 carbon fiber job at APS (for the FT10)? (click here for more pics)

Re: 5.6.2 Tiller and tiller extension. Custom tiller for sale [Re: Bob Rutsch] #9108
03/19/10 12:37 PM
03/19/10 12:37 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 159
grand rapids, mi
311 Temptation Offline
Western Great Lakes District Governor
311 Temptation  Offline
Western Great Lakes District Governor
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 159
grand rapids, mi
wood is good


Dell Todd
#311 Temptation
Holland MI
Re: 5.6.2 Tiller and tiller extension. Custom tiller for sale [Re: 311 Temptation] #9109
03/19/10 12:40 PM
03/19/10 12:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 186
Barrington, RI
cstoddard Offline
Senior Member
cstoddard  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 186
Barrington, RI
Tiller should be wood


Charlie Stoddard
Falcon #229
Re: 5.6.2 Tiller and tiller extension. Custom tiller for sale [Re: cstoddard] #9110
03/19/10 01:06 PM
03/19/10 01:06 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 155
Annapolis, MD US
LChristy Offline
J/30 Class Measurer
LChristy  Offline
J/30 Class Measurer
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 155
Annapolis, MD US
Tiller should be wood

Re: 5.6.2 Tiller and tiller extension. Custom tiller for sale [Re: LChristy] #9113
03/19/10 02:11 PM
03/19/10 02:11 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 649
Marblehead, MA
dbows Offline
Senior Member
dbows  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 649
Marblehead, MA
Why do we care what the material it is as long as the metal parts are still there? I doubt everyone is going to rush out and buy carbon tillers to drop at most 2.5 pounds.

I think it should remain unrestricted in material as it is today.


David Bows
Mallorca - Hull# 397
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Re: 5.6.2 Tiller and tiller extension. Custom tiller for sale [Re: dbows] #9117
03/19/10 03:14 PM
03/19/10 03:14 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 678
Maryland, USA
Bob Rutsch Offline OP
Governor at Large
Bob Rutsch  Offline OP
Governor at Large
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 678
Maryland, USA
Laser, among the strictest one-designs in the world in most ways, does not restrict the tiller and tiller extension. Many, maybe the majority of Laser sailors use a $200+ carbon tiller and $100+ carbon extension, including me on my 1982 beater that leaks. Why? They're stiff, providing great feel. They don't bend or break. Before I got my new extension I had to straighten out my aluminum extension after every breezy day.

Despite the fuzzy language if anyone showed up at a one-design event with anything resembling the carbon CCI tiller (linked above) I'd call foul. Equivalent does not mean unrestricted.

Re: 5.6.2 Tiller and tiller extension. Custom tiller for sale [Re: Bob Rutsch] #9118
03/19/10 03:51 PM
03/19/10 03:51 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 649
Marblehead, MA
dbows Offline
Senior Member
dbows  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 649
Marblehead, MA
I can live with wood because I an not going to plunk down for a carbon tiller. Now one of Luke's wood ones I might (-:


David Bows
Mallorca - Hull# 397
~~~~~_/)~_/)~~~~_/)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~
Re: 5.6.2 Tiller and tiller extension. Custom tiller for sale [Re: dbows] #9119
03/19/10 07:47 PM
03/19/10 07:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 2
Connecticut
sshepardiv Offline
Forum Newbie
sshepardiv  Offline
Forum Newbie
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 2
Connecticut
Wood would be my choice

Seth Shepard IV
Vice President Engineering & Facilities Planning
Griffin Hospital
130 Division Street
Derby, CT 06418
Tel: 203.732.7343
Fax: 203.732.1343
E-mail: sshepard@griffinhealth.org

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