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Re: Dacron Main Poll Results Complete 1 April 2010 [Re: Rhapsody #348] #9242
04/06/10 05:40 PM
04/06/10 05:40 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
Bill,
To your request for interpretations of the results, since I have no strong opinions on the topic, I offer "the un-biased view of the civil war as seen throught he eyes of a southerner".
Kidding aside
Almost 3/4 (72%) of participants currently only have dacron.
Yet 62% of those voting said they would pay some premium; anywhere from 10% to higher to move up to a highe tech main sail
80% would not have a PHRF penalty if sail material were changed.
6 participants said they would come to OD events if non-dacron mains were allowed.
I could make some summary points that




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Re: Dacron Main Poll Results Complete 1 April 2010 [Re: Russ Atkinson] #9243
04/06/10 05:55 PM
04/06/10 05:55 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
Here's an observation
Don't hit the tab bar when trying to type in the quick reply
I'll pick up where I left off
I could make some summary points
1. More than half of the participants would pay a premium to go to higher tech mains
2. few would be affected in PHRF racing
But I won't. Instead I offer these thoughts to the members and the board
1. To the OD sailors
If the class allowed non-dacron mains, would you conclude the need to purchse a non-dacron main jsut to be competitive or do you think dacron mains are competitive
2. To the 6 people said they would come to OD events if non-dacron mains were allowed; Is that 6 who currently do not come or are some of those that responded currently attending OD events with dacron mains. In other words, how much are the OD events going to really benifit from this change? I'm one of the 6: net +1 so far.
3. In fairness to that question - how many OD sailors will quit coming if the main sail material rule is changed?
4. To the Board - what will the class gain from changing the main sail material and what, if any set backs would the class incurr from the change?
I'll look for some response as I think of more to add

Re: Dacron Main Poll Results Complete 1 April 2010 [Re: Russ Atkinson] #9245
04/06/10 07:43 PM
04/06/10 07:43 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,234
Newport and Naples
Cap'n Vic Offline
Senior Member
Cap'n Vic  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,234
Newport and Naples
on the high tech side:
1. ALL the Phrf spin b boats we see here in Naples are NOT dacron.
2. our National Rating -- cast in iron 25 years ago -- was set up dacron to dacron ... the rest of the phrf racers have kicked it up ... we fall behind
3. J30 work horse is the Main
4. I am looking at ONE NA for the next three years in Dacron, but 30+ regattas not in dacron.
5. In Narragansett Bay we "may" get 3 OD regattas a summer but only if we get 5 boats. I think there was 1 OD regatta last summer, and one of the 5 registered didn't do the races.

maybe I can rent a dacron for the NA? Should be light wind in Marblehead ... unless we get an early hurricane. For the OD events in NB this summer ... I will bring up my heavy full battened dacron.


Re: Dacron Main Poll Results Complete 1 April 2010 [Re: Cap'n Vic] #9252
04/07/10 12:13 PM
04/07/10 12:13 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 93
PNW
lakesailor Offline
Senior Member
lakesailor  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 93
PNW
Prior to my retirement form the marine industry, over the years I rep'd for North, U/K, and most recently Quantum. Sadly the odds of my attending a Class OD event are likely slim to none so I really don't have a dog in this hunt but decided I would offer up a few thoughts on this from a third party who has also been active in other classes.

The ultimate concern that seems to oppose the change to laminate mainsails is concerns of cost and to a lesser extent longevity (ultimately another argument about costs). On the costs theme it should be noted that not all laminate sails are created equally. Recent advancements in sailcloth design mean that laminate sails can now take advantage of less labour intensive cross-cut construction methods, that when combined with offshore production (further taking advantage of cheaper labour) means that laminate mainsails can be had at price points virtually on par with conventional Dacron mainsails (it should also be noted that Dacron is a fairly premium material and has not fallen in price as many laminate cloths have) As far as longevity, both laminate and Dacron also have a comparable competitive lifespan although ultimately it will take Dacron longer to self destruct but that is really a different discussion.

With all due respect to the OD class stalwarts, in my humble opinion, I would submit that people are no longer buying the J/30 for "class racing" Most, like myself, are buying the J/30 for the comfort of the design and the fact that the boat can still be competitively raced, and for the vast majority of us, competitive racing is going to involve PHRF, that is simply a reality. There are very, very few boats campaigning in PHRF that do not take advantage of the performance and reduced weight of laminate sails, more so as the prices have come down on par with Dacron. I do not believe there is anyone buying a J/30 because if they were to race class, the can save a few dollars by not having to replace a Dacron mainsail after it is 5 years old. Further the poll shows the majority race PHRF and there are greater cost efficiencies if you can have only ONE competitive mainsail as part of your program and be able to race PHRF and Class with that mainsail. Some class members have talked about having a "class Dacron" mainsail rolled up in the basement just for class events. This in itself seems somewhat wasteful.

From my perspective it just seems to make sense to try and streamline a competitive PHRF inventory with a Class legal inventory. The alternative, as you have already heard from some, is that exceptions may end up getting made if it means getting a few more boats on the line. I will say that if the costs of exotic sails were still on par with building a tri-radial Kevlar mainsail (still a very pricey option) I would feel differently, however most every sail maker now has an affordable laminate product that offers a competitive lifespan on par with Dacron. Just my .02

Re: Dacron Main Poll Results Complete 1 April 2010 [Re: lakesailor] #9262
04/09/10 03:09 PM
04/09/10 03:09 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 675
Maryland, USA
Bob Rutsch Offline
Governor at Large
Bob Rutsch  Offline
Governor at Large
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 675
Maryland, USA
I appreciate the rational thoughts of lakesailor and poll analysis from Russ. My perspective as a one-design sailor is that our class rules and restrictions level the playing field by controlling costs. Our rules go beyond material to include limits on the number, type, size and how often sails may be replaced.

While accurate, the converse to Russ' claim that 62% would pay more is an even larger majority (73%) that would only pay a small premium or none at all (35% plus 38%, respectively). If it were in fact possible to obtain a laminated sail for just 10% over the cost of Dacron, would the remaining 27% of class members, already willing to pay even more, accept the limits of a budget priced laminate?

In answer to another question posed above, were the class to allow laminated mainsails, yes, I would feel compelled to purchase one in order to remain competitive. Where I sail the difference between the top boats in most races is measured in seconds. If the class were to make the change I'd imagine our fleet would either stay Dacron for at least a couple years or change completely to laminates within two seasons. The change might spark interest or it could kill an already declining fleet so that the few remaining boats sailed PHRF part time like the rest of the country. Realize that there are a dozen alternative one-design keelboats racing in Annapolis, J/22, J24, J/80, J/105, and J/35 among them.

While a lively exchange of opinions is vital to the class, continuing uncertainty over rules is not. Are we going reconsider the mainsail material annually? How about once every three or four years, the minimum life span of a mainsail. If you wish to succeed in convincing satisfied one-design sailors to purchase a more expensive mainsail than they need, you might also consider extending the replacement cycle, and further limiting how often or how many sails can be purchased annually.

Re: Dacron Main Poll Results Complete 1 April 2010 [Re: Bob Rutsch] #9263
04/09/10 05:54 PM
04/09/10 05:54 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
I'm sorry... I couldn't find that rule in the by-laws about only voting every three or four years. Is that under main sail material or is that a general rule for every by law.

But back to being serious and statistical; 6 folks responded that they only race OD... and 4 said they race mostly OD. That means that 80% of the respondants race mostly PHRF - a rather substantial majority. Then if the non-dacron main is better (as Bob says), isn't it a bit unfair to restrict the majority of the fleet from being competitive where they do most of their racing.

Bob makes reference to "convincing satisfied one-design sailors to purcahse more expensive mainsails than they need". I'm not exactly sure what that relates too in that if there is a one design fleet that is only interested in one design, then make all the sails as inexpensive as possible. Apparently there was some arguement for upgrading the headsail material that trancended one-design racing because there is no logic for upgrading any material if one-design is the only objective. And unfortunately that leads us back to the fact that today, only 20% are racing mostly or only OD.
There was also reference made that there are a dozen alternative one-design keelboats racing. To those classes that have significant numbers racing mostly one-design, restrict the "H" out of the sail material. When I bought wildcat in 1986 and sailed in Newport - there would be 10-15 j/30's in most races. And every mid-week race had a j/30 one design group. When there are those kind of numbers, so long as everyone is the same - I would agree; what difference does it make what the sail material is.
The J/30 Class is now over 30 years old and the majority of j/30 sailors (by a large margin) race mostly PHRF or don't race OD at all. It seems to me that if one wants to build the J/30 fleet, first make the boat competitive in the largest racing venue (PHRF). Encourage and build the racing fleet of J/30's and then give those sailors reason to come race OD.

Re: Dacron Main Poll Results Complete 1 April 2010 [Re: Cap'n Vic] #9271
04/10/10 06:38 AM
04/10/10 06:38 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,656
Portsmouth, RI
Rhapsody #348 Offline
Past J/30 Class President
Rhapsody #348  Offline
Past J/30 Class President
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,656
Portsmouth, RI
Just so there is no confusion - I moved a post on Genoa sizes originally in this thread that Vic added (and the replies to it) to a thread already started on that topic. Let's keep this thread limited to the mainsail discussion, and discuss other aspects in the respective threads to minimize confusion.

Thanks,

Re: Dacron Main Poll Results Complete 1 April 2010 [Re: Rhapsody #348] #9273
04/10/10 06:48 AM
04/10/10 06:48 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,234
Newport and Naples
Cap'n Vic Offline
Senior Member
Cap'n Vic  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,234
Newport and Naples
roger, roger ... the gist of that comment was to say that if we have 2% tolerances in a number of other OD parameters (such as the 163%) ... maybe we should relegate the mainsail material to the "optional" status and not worry about it.

Re: Dacron Main Poll Results Complete 1 April 2010 [Re: Cap'n Vic] #9274
04/10/10 08:13 AM
04/10/10 08:13 AM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 675
Maryland, USA
Bob Rutsch Offline
Governor at Large
Bob Rutsch  Offline
Governor at Large
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 675
Maryland, USA
True the rules don't limit how often an issue is reconsidered or changed. However I think it is the duty of the BOG to use a steady hand at the helm so that sailors can plan their purchases. I'm due for a mainsail soon and will plan accordingly.

I characterize this as you wanting to be able to compete in PHRF while sailing an occasional NA without buying an extra mainsail. I want to hold down costs to help my one design fleet survive. Around here the J/35 and J/80 fleets are growing while the J/30s have shrunk to about 10-12 active boats.

I don't care what sail material is approved but do care about the impact of cost, as noted above. Clearly this would be a more expensive sail and in my one design fleet no one needs one. It could be that a sexy expensive mainsail will attract more interest and increase activity, though I doubt it. I can afford a high tech main and as noted above would get one. The question is will the rest of my fleet pay the premium.

Here's an idea. My fleet passes the hat with each member pitching in $200 apiece, or better yet we assess the entire class $2000 over five years divided by the number of members. Then every five years spend $2000 to get a class mainsail that one lucky but recalcitrant PHRF racer may use annually by lottery at the NA's. That would be less expensive in the long run.

Re: Dacron Main Poll Results Complete 1 April 2010 [Re: Bob Rutsch] #9275
04/10/10 09:12 AM
04/10/10 09:12 AM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
I like best the idea that Bob's fleet pass the hat to buy me a new sail

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