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Re: Dacron Main Poll Results Complete 1 April 2010 [Re: Russ Atkinson] #9276
04/10/10 09:32 AM
04/10/10 09:32 AM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
Sorry - I couldn't resist the opportunity to have Bob's fleet buy me a new main.
More seriously, ever since I've owned my J/30 (1986), J/30 sailors have been moving "up" to J/35's and other fleets. The J/24 fleet, I'll bet, is srinking in numbers at the expense of the j/80 fleet and the Melges 24 fleet. And why, because the J/24 is in the same vintage as the J/30 while the Melges and J/80's are new, high tech and "sexy".
Back to what I said in my post yesterday - if one want's to build the brand and ultimately the OD participation. Attract sailors from the majority of racing. Convince them that a 30 year old boat can be competitive. Attract sailors in Ohio, Chicago, Michigan, etc, etc to buy and race the boats. Build local entities of J/30 fleets that can start racing OD. Make the boat competitive in the venue where it is raced most and don't make those sailors go buy a second main to race OD. And in the mean time, Bob when you order my new sail my sail number is 41230

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Re: Dacron Main Poll Results Complete 1 April 2010 [Re: Russ Atkinson] #9278
04/10/10 12:41 PM
04/10/10 12:41 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 111
Bellevue, WA, USA
R
R II Offline
Senior Member
R II  Offline
Senior Member
R
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 111
Bellevue, WA, USA
It appears to me that the fortunate few that are able to race one-design, prefer the status quo. The rest race PHRF and do as they please. The eventual demise of one-design will likely follow as more prefer to be competetive in the many more events available in PHRF. Is that what the BOG thinks appropriate?


AC
Re: Dacron Main Poll Results Complete 1 April 2010 [Re: R II] #9279
04/11/10 05:32 AM
04/11/10 05:32 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,656
Portsmouth, RI
Rhapsody #348 Offline
Past J/30 Class President
Rhapsody #348  Offline
Past J/30 Class President
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,656
Portsmouth, RI
I wouldn't be so quick to declare the demise of J/30 one-design racing. If you look at the J/30 National Championship History you'll see that except for least year when the economy tanked, J/30 NAs have continuously grown in participation over the past 5 years. I see the same thing on Narragansett bay. It is a matter of shaking the trees to get participation up. Some boats just aren't racing, PHRF or OD. Is it the main sail material causing that? I doubt it.

Personally, I'd like to maintain a reasonable cost for the OD main sails. I don't think laminates are the answer because of longevity. That's why I'm investigating Vectron - a woven material that looks like Dacron but better strength and aging characteristics for about 10% more than Dacron. There was a market for my 1998 and 2002 Dacron sails sold to people who can use them for cruising and delivery. I wouldn't have been able to do that with a laminate sail the same age.

ps - I'll take one of those sails bought by the class too! smile

I'm going to start a different thread that is "what-if" for brain storing ideas on equipment that have been in this thread, emails, and other threads. Let's keep this thread on topic for the mainsail only.

Last edited by Rhapsody #348; 04/11/10 06:54 AM. Reason: added PS
Re: Dacron Main Poll Results Complete 1 April 2010 [Re: Rhapsody #348] #9281
04/11/10 10:17 AM
04/11/10 10:17 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 93
PNW
lakesailor Offline
Senior Member
lakesailor  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 93
PNW
Originally Posted by Rhapsody #348
I wouldn't be so quick to declare the demise of J/30 one-design racing. If you look at the J/30 National Championship History you'll see that except for least year when the economy tanked, J/30 NAs have continuously grown in participation over the past 5 years. I see the same thing on Narragansett bay. It is a matter of shaking the trees to get participation up. Some boats just aren't racing, PHRF or OD. Is it the main sail material causing that? I doubt it.

Personally, I'd like to maintain a reasonable cost for the OD main sails. I don't think laminates are the answer because of longevity. That's why I'm investigating Vectron - a woven material that looks like Dacron but better strength and aging characteristics for about 10% more than Dacron. There was a market for my 1998 and 2002 Dacron sails sold to people who can use them for cruising and delivery. I wouldn't have been able to do that with a laminate sail the same age.

ps - I'll take one of those sails bought by the class too! smile

I'm going to start a different thread that is "what-if" for brain storing ideas on equipment that have been in this thread, emails, and other threads. Let's keep this thread on topic for the mainsail only.



I am assuming you are referring to Vectran. Vectran is an excellent performing sailcloth as well.

Re: Dacron Main Poll Results Complete 1 April 2010 [Re: lakesailor] #9285
04/11/10 10:09 PM
04/11/10 10:09 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 649
Marblehead, MA
dbows Offline
Senior Member
dbows  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 649
Marblehead, MA
One thing to consider - when trying to build a fleet it would be much easier to have the OD config match PHRF. Take it from someone that has tried hard to build a viable fleet.

It seems people with established fleets want to keep it the same and people who potentially see having a fleet want to it to change because thier boats will come from PHRF.

I personally think there would be MORE OD racing if it matched PHRF.


David Bows
Mallorca - Hull# 397
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Re: Dacron Main Poll Results Complete 1 April 2010 [Re: lakesailor] #9287
04/12/10 06:00 AM
04/12/10 06:00 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,656
Portsmouth, RI
Rhapsody #348 Offline
Past J/30 Class President
Rhapsody #348  Offline
Past J/30 Class President
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,656
Portsmouth, RI
Originally Posted by lakesailor
I am assuming you are referring to Vectran. Vectran is an excellent performing sailcloth as well.

Yes - Vectron is the Hood Sails brand name for a fabric that is made from Vectran. It is a woven cloth with polyester (Dacron) and high tenacity Vectran fibers. This from the Hood Sail website

Quote
In 1995 Hood launched Vektron® sailcloth, a breakthrough in sailcloth technology, utilising Vektran® fibre to weave a higher strength, lighter weight woven fabric with superior durability and longevity. Vektran® is the trade name of CNA, a liquid crystal polymer fibre which is underwoven with super high tenacity polyester. This process which has a worldwide patent, has been pioneered by Hood Textiles in Ireland. Because Vektron sailcloth is fully woven not subject to the delamination and handling problems inherent in laminate construction.

Re: Dacron Main Poll Results Complete 1 April 2010 [Re: Rhapsody #348] #9288
04/12/10 06:54 AM
04/12/10 06:54 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 186
Barrington, RI
cstoddard Offline
Senior Member
cstoddard  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 186
Barrington, RI
If we were to open up the sail material all options what would happen

N/A's
We will see a mix of new sails carbon and dacron in the top ten finishing boats will the main sail material make the difference NO
The rest of the fleet will be sailing with an older inventory that plus luck and skill sets will determine were they finish
Conclusion it doesn't matter what the material is

local one design
Those who choose to sail with there number one set of sails will probably finish higher than those sailing with their set of second level sails (Bill I've sailed with you so I know that you save the good stuff for key events)
Conclusion If you sail with the good stuff and you get luckly you will finish higher than sailing with the old stuff

So a dacron sail will age by stretching getting fuller and fuller with time thus you don't go up hill as fast so over 3-5 years based on the amount of sailing you do it goes from a race sail a club sail to the crusing sail ( I'm on race main number 4 over 15 years) A carbon main will not stretch out will hold its shape until the material fails probably due to flogging the sail going from a race main to the dumpster.

The carbon main will be lighter by about 50 % which is good in a PHRF fleet In looking at the Tuesday night fleet in Barrington the Carbon mains on typical 30-35 footers are lasting 5 plus years assuming they are well maintained which is longer than I can get out of Dacron

Draw backs to Carbon are
up front cost
Care and feeding to max the life you will need to roll the sail making sure that the crew doesn't crease it or step on it

I would like to suggust that we consider opening up the main material in the following fashion

local one design for the 2011 season
North Americans for the 2012 event

This will allow people to evaluate options get pricing and save up for the sail of there choice
Lets remember that the J30 Class is sailed by a bunch of people who love racing but are not the Ken Reads of the world So its going to be who makes the least mistakes not the sail material that makes the real difference in a race




Charlie Stoddard
Falcon #229
Re: Dacron Main Poll Results Complete 1 April 2010 [Re: cstoddard] #9294
04/12/10 03:06 PM
04/12/10 03:06 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 675
Maryland, USA
Bob Rutsch Offline
Governor at Large
Bob Rutsch  Offline
Governor at Large
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 675
Maryland, USA
Sorry Russ, but the idea would be to make a class mainsail available to a PHRF racer who doesn't have one in order to sail at the NA's, kind of like the loaner boat. You wouldn't get to take it home after the regatta or put your number on it, except temporarily while using at the NA's. Used only six races a year, it should last a good long while.

Melges 24 never reached critical mass here and probably never will. Meanwhile the J/22, J/24 fleets are both active and stable. Etchells came to these parts relatively recently while J/80s only are just now getting organized. J/105s peaked at 43 boats back in 2007 down to 23 in 2009. Bet you can you guess what all have in common with the J/30?

Re: Dacron Main Poll Results Complete 1 April 2010 [Re: Bob Rutsch] #9314
04/13/10 08:17 PM
04/13/10 08:17 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,234
Newport and Naples
Cap'n Vic Offline
Senior Member
Cap'n Vic  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,234
Newport and Naples
Roger, Roger ... sign me up for a loaner Dacron Main for NA.

My 7.8 oz, full battened bullet proof North dacron ... my favorite sail in 20+ is not going to cut it in under 10s in Marblehead.

And I would have to take off all the Tides Marine slugs and batten slides. And my 15% first reef probably violates OD design.

here in Naples we have 1 J105, 1 J30, 1 J95 and no other Js sailing. But the last club regatta brought in 9 Melges 24s for a circle of their own. a quarter of the racers.

Re: Dacron Main Poll Results Complete 1 April 2010 [Re: Cap'n Vic] #9381
04/20/10 12:59 PM
04/20/10 12:59 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
Russ Atkinson Offline OP
Senior Member
Russ Atkinson  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 391
Rockwood, MI, USA
Sorry for any confusion about the free main... the only thing I can offer is that apparently for some, sarcasm can be a difficult concept to grasp. In the future, I'll try to write a little slower smile
In reference to one design fleet sizes, when I lived in NJ, a cusotmer once told me that New Yorkers thought that the US ended at the Hudson. In my 10 years in Mass. I learned that most New Englanders think of the Connecticut river as the end of the universe. Apparently, some in Annapolis have similar restricted vision.
And, as an FYI, Etchell's, Melges 24's J/22's, and J/80's are all raced mostly in one design. Those boats are technically not PHRF legal for any offshore races without lifelines. Since those boats are so focused in OD, they could all use cardboard sails if their classes so decided. Thus it seem that the reference to using dacron sails (did I guess right) doesn't really compare to the J/30.

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