Jib Furler

I am considering installing a Jib Furler: I mostly cruise with my wife and beer-can/OD racing came third in my wish plan after offshore racing...

Any feedback on:

• How practical is the removal of the drum on Harken MkIV or alike?
• Can the class #1 and #3 used when the drum is removed?
• Do you need to replace or modify your headstay?
• Do you start about what you lost each time you head up?

Last, I love the North Sails that came with my boat, but Newport is farther than Marblehead/Salem from Boston. Any advice in term of Sail Lofts up there?

Cheers,

Ask David Bows about sailing with a furler, both his 1 and 3 fit and I don't think the furler slows him down. As for a North Loft, there is one in Salem Mass at Dions yacht Yard, Great service and the sales team is excellent about getting the best bang for your buck. I can't remember the number off hand, but i'm sure you can get it.
Luke Buxton
Evelyn #179

Luke -- I have a 155% size of the Taffetta 3DL [talked about in the attached link] on Vee Jay on roller furling ... it was touted as a roller furling friendly 3DL ... how do you like yours and the North Direct program for OD sails?
I was not happy about the way they did the UV Cover.
http://campaign.constantcontact.com...efr13usFKRosgOijtCqiWmN9sXkuMPNVXA%3D%3D

Luke

I have a 155% Taffetta 3DL on Madcap as well. It is reefable and is surprisly fast reefed. I spec. a rounded (J105 type of foot). I dont have a UV cover on mine, I just take it off or run a sock up the spinn haylard. I have the Harken MKIV with a new head stay in it.

I have raced 3 years with it and never removed the drum. I think it is a great set-up for PHRF racing.

Georges - There are two ways to race with the Harken. The first is to just drop the top collar below the track feed. This allows you to do sail changes etc. and to tack to the deck,and you do not to remove the drum. This is what we do most of the time. However for the NOODs and the NA's we completely remove the drum because it looks better in pictures (-: and it keeps the lower 2 feet of the sail nice and true.

Dropping the collar takes about 30 seconds. Removing the drum takes about 30 minutes.

I have my racing sails cut as if I did not have a furler except my #2, that is what I keep on the furler. The North Loft in Salem made me a great #2 last year.

I personally do not think it hurts us any great amount. Yea I am sure there are times I might want a bit more headstay sag but I can tune the rig to get it close. I can still easily get 6"-8" of sag.

Three of us here have all North Sails from the guys in Salem and they are excellent with excellent service - highly recommend them.

North Loft - 978-745-1400 - Jack Slatery for Sails and Brad White or Steve Cruse for service.

Thanks to all of you - this is tremendously useful.

David, one last question regarding the #2, since I have no idea of its size.
Can you use it with the jib track?
My plan was to use the biggest headsail size that still fits the jib track.
I am not thrilled by extending the genoa track and I found that the #3 is the right sail for my wife and me.
If it is light I will just use my #1 - directly - as you suggested.

The sailing gap I am trying to cover comfortably is between 2 reefs main alone, no jib, and 2 reefs with the jib. In those conditions, I found that 1 reef in the main, main alone is the right power but with so much weather helm and drag that it is both tiring and slow.

Since I want to race single and double offshore, I also would like it to cover between #3 and storm jib.

Cheers,

Last winter we had a lot of heavy wind here in SWFL. I mistakenly thought the 155% 3DL -- "Max apparent wind 23 kts" by the way -- would be able to take reefing. In one race we had gusts to 38 ... I was double reefed main and perhaps 1/3 out on a 155% ... and other regattas that were ~25 true with reefing to suit. and full weight crew. (Main is 7.8 oz fully battened.) Vee Jay is basically a "cruising" set-up J30.

that was a brand new sail now showing signs of filament separation along the luff. So OK we have a 7 month racing season down here and we used that sail for practice as well.

toward the end of the year I went back to my heavy duty dacron 145 and that sailed better in heavy wind with minor reefing than the 3DL over reefed.

If you talk to the sail guys ... "well the 3DL's a furling sail -- just can't reef it like a dacron."

My standard sail set for off shore NPT for 15 years was a full battened heavy main and heavy #2 ... that and a couple of death wish crew guys 10 years younger than me. We didn't race -- we went for the adrenaline rush.

#2 goes on main track no problem.

Final advice: If you don't plan on having 1200 pounds on the rail ... get a 145% for offshore ... if its a 3DL do light reefing then switch to #3

However in light air you will not be competitive with the 145% as the PHRF corrections don't relate to real world.

The # 2 will not go to the jib tracks, it is a 135%. However you can have a full hoist #3 made which will give you a good bump in size but still fit the jib tracks (class legal is not a full hoist #3).

I have found that if you get the right sail balance the boat is very easy to sail with little helm. My wife has had little trouble sailing it in 20+ when I get the right sails up. We are however pretty whipped if we have to sail more than a few hours because it still takes a lot of main trim and traveler work to keep the boat on its feet in big puffs.

Also I have found that newer sails that have good shape and a well tuned rig make the boat much easier to sail without a lot of helm (unless you are on a tight reach then forget it).

When we go to Buzzards Bay, Nantucket and MV we will sail with a #3 on the furler, if we go to Maine we leave the #2 on. Around Boston we stick with the #2.

Vic- Is your 3DL 155 a Marathon? That delam does not sound good on a newer sail. I have reefed mine in 30+ several times last season on distance races seems ok. I think I will take a closer look at it.

3DL Marathon (Taffetta) Medium #1 with uv cover -- 11 months old -- Nov. 09
[List price $3K+]
This is the Taffetta version touted as the very best fabric for roller furling. at 155% I thought Medium would have done the trick ... Realize that this is 8 months of sailing on this sail.

In defense of North:
1. our season down here is 7 months long.
2. Vee Jay is out average of 2 times a week + regattas

Other considerations:
1. Vee Jay only goes out over 20 for regattas.
2. We roller furl every time we launch spin
3. We spin 95% of the times we go out in practices.

What do you guys think?

Multiple sails on furler, Furling AND Reefing, I would not have even consider it by myself. Cool info there. Sail Claus this year. Thanks again.

I have no experience with taffetas, but I guess that I long this is the only part affected by the wear/delamination, that should not be that bad. I definitely do not intend to send $3k a year on sails so I will mention this to the North loft when discussing all this options...
Cheers,
-- Georges

Once it starts to separate like this that delaminated white film will start to tear and peel off the main. Basically this sail is shot. I will probably buy a race set for Vee Jay 2 early next year. but will not put 3DL on furler again ... never mind any possible use as roller reefing.

Please refer your local rep to these photos. I am interested in what their reaction will be to the Best furling 3DL they have.

The first week I had this sail I had to return it as the UV cover had been badly stiched and doesn't really match well to the sail material creating bubbles in the foot and leach ... their response is that you really should use a sock and not a UV cover ... That advice I now fully agree with ... although it would have been good to tell me that before I got a sewed on UV cover and they double stiched it to try to make it work. They offered to remove the sail cover and give me a sock... with a lot of stitch holes left in the sail.

So that is the second thing I will never do again ... get a 3DL with a sunbrella UV Cover.




v

Vic

Wow that is not the sail I have. I bought a 3DL "Marathon". It is a white dacron sail with the 3DL sail sandwitched inbetween. I cannot beleive you rep speced that sail for a furler! That sail should not be on a furler.

My last marathon was on the boat from 8 years and look like that after 8 years. I was told that was a Pentex Delam problem. I put 1000+ miles a year on Madcap and the Marathon is the way to go. Very durable, great shape, but a little heavier than your sail. I hope to get anouther 8-10 years on my new sail.

I dont have a UV cover to keep weight down. I take it off and flake it or run a sock up if I am going to sail the next day.

This is what my 3DL Marathon looks like.

[img:left]http://www.anchorageyachtclub.org/1/photo-gallery-othermenu-135/?g2_itemId=27037[/img]

Have I got the wrong description ... this is the sail and it doesn't seem to mention dacron. My paperwork on this is 1500 miles north. This North description does look like God's gift to sailors and you can see how I was sucked in.

http://www.na.northsails.com/SailProducts/CruisingSails/Marathon3DL/tabid/1914/Default.aspx

Vee Jay here in Naples is a cruising boat that races phrf.

v

It is dacron like? Mine looks like that at the right angle you can see the 3DL sail inside.

I would have your rep explain that. They are great sails.

Good luck racing in Naples. That sounds nicer than raking leaves!

not a bit like dacron --- fits their description of a North 3DL Marathon covered with Taffetta Film ... now delaminating ... still works ok I think, but that film is going to start ripping away anyday now.... and puckers the surface.

out today SW 12-15 on shore, ~80 degrees, sunny, 40 min spin run with our buddy boat Shock! a Wavelength 30 ...

Now have on a two year old North 7.8 oz. NSP dacron full battened Main that is bulletproof and an absolutely great dacron sail ... but heavy as hell. Great off shore sail. The next one will be one step lighter... but I think they have upgraded that fabric and now call it something else.

I am convinced that high tech Dacron is the absolutely only way to go for a cruising J30 that wants to do a little racing.

The Marathon is the way to go if you want to furl a 3DL. We have a full set on the J/42 we ocean race on. They are fantastic and durable. I would never furl my 3 Day Life (3DL).

Do they still make that dacron sandwich 3DL ... all I can find for a 3DL Marathon is
http://www.na.northsails.com/SailProducts/CruisingSails/Marathon3DL/tabid/1914/Default.aspx with Taffetta film surface coating.

and that's what I took the photos of after one season.

duh 3 Day Life ... I'll have to remember that one!!!

Vic - what you took the photo of is not a Marathon 3DL - at least not like the Marthon 3DLs I have seen. The taffeta is heavy duty and is completely opaque, more like a fabric than a milar film.

Vic,
Are the two set of photos you posted in #8414 (close to the tack ?) and #8418 (upper leech?) really from the same sail?

roger, roger ... but it definitely isn't dacron? and do they have a taffetta fabric?

I will try to confirm what I got later today ... but taffetta was a key word when I ordered that sail. I actually had to go out of my way to learn how to spell it. I thought they made gals dresses out of it back when.

OK CORRECTIONs HERE...
Correction1. ..The sail is a 600S one side taffetta and one side mylar...
It appears that we have to be an engineer in regard to 3DL as the customer, combined with the sail rep, has a half dozen choices to stray away from the "listed" sails like a Marathon. Apparently, I was looking for an lighter weight sail than the Marathon so I went along with just one side taffeta ... the side that is going is the Mylar film side.

Correction 2 ... the sail cover is not Sunbrella but dacron. The
problem remains that as the 3DL shrinks, the dacron stretches.

Correction 3 ... North measures sail life in hours not years ... but then defining hours is related to wind strength and what kind of tacking is done

There is no dacron in the Marathon 3DL unless you stitch on a dacron UV cover.

my basic conclusions remain intact.
1. don't reef a 3DL on a furling
2. don't use a dacron or sunbrella stitched on uv cover.

Humbly submitted
vic

Footloose --- roger roger on the photos from same sail...
I have a dacron UV suncover ... which rightly so ... adds +3 to my PHRF here in SWFL. We get a LOT of sun here and just perhaps North may have overkilled it a bit with the weight of that dacron suncover. As originally delivered and even to 1 year later ... air seems to creep in through the dacron and form a bubble. Now as the 3dl sail shrinks a bit and the dacron stretches a bit this continues with various results in various wind conditions.

I was just browsing the North Sails site and ran across this page. Maybe it was there before, but it's the first time I've stumbled across something that shows the various 3DL offerings in one place.

Just an update photo on the sail that we raced with for the "final" time last weekend [4/12/2010]... next step is the dumpster.

two year old 3dl. Down here in Naples we are going to replace it with "anything" else.

When these sails start to delaminate they go pretty fast. I did not realize how fast or I would have had a replacement ready for it. The ONLY thing that held it together was the dacron UV cover.

NOW GET THIS ... we sailed just about the same as we did 6 months ago against our competition ... BUT it was crew work that made the difference.



they look so good when they are new.

Vic - what do you estimate as "sailing days" that the 3DL was used? That's a real museum piece now....

~14 months x 4 weeks = 56 weeks X 2.5 days per week.
{~ 3 hours a trip}

I got 140 days {or as some like to use its life expectancy -- about 420 hours} out of two years. probably 1/2 of those days would have been somewhere over 15mph days, perhaps reefed in a bit. But the mylar has separated almost entirely on one side and the threads also appear to have separated from the base other side mostly near the leech ... probably from tacks, and near the luff probably from furling. I am sure a 163 would have not lasted as long on the leech end as the center threads there are showing abrasive fraying.

which I suppose is pretty good for a 3 day life sail.

At the risk of taking this topic one more notch ... So anyway I was prepping this 2 year old 3DL sail for the dumpster this morning and I looked at the sausage bag ... which by the way was four feet longer than it needed to be with the sail straight out ... and I said to myself what do I do with this nearly brand new oversize bag? And this label pops out at me telling me the sail is a 500 medium ... now I may have this sail weight thing completely wrong, but I was sort of under the impression that the 500 sails were really light wind sails. And since my salesman did recently tell me it was a 600 sail in his records ... and since all the other sails I have in bags from North seem to be marked pretty accurately ... I now am wondering if indeed I blew apart a light weigh sail thinking it was a "medium"

What do you guys think?

Vic - I would call North Sails and ask them to bring up the order number listed in the system. They have an online order system that should have the build specs on your order number. Tell them you are considering purchasing another sail and ask if they can provide the exact details on what you bought before.

Will stop by to see them next week ... if my sales rep is not out racing somewhere.

Let me correct my use time estimate in the post up above 420 total sailing hours but say modified with 1/3 Spin ... so that makes the sail life to complete delamination with free flowing treads 280 hours

So ok ... this is an update to an 11-19-09 note in this thread:
I replaced my 155 3DL and its horrendus dacron UV cover with a 155 Kevlar medium weight with a sock. North does a trade in 25% off deal every once and a while and they got back the 2 year old shredded 3DL.

There was no way I was going to do a dacon UV cover on anything but a dacron sail as they stretch differently and destroy whatever shape the trailing edge of the sail has as well as the bottom 20 or so inches.

So they sent me a sock ... which I am happy with since it covers the sail but doesn't effect the sail. mastman pulls it up on the spin halyard while foredeck guy holds zipper and guides it around. There is a lacing to really tighten it in ... but probably not bother with that unless we have a storm coming. So OK I got the longest zipper in the marina.

Also after 27 years with a Harken roller which was originally on 327 then to 505 ... I am about to put on the Harken IV Series 1. and a new forestay built by Hall. I hope to get another 25 years out of it ... the Harken ...not the sock ... if that sock lasts a year I'll be surprised.

By the way Harken recommends a low Clew ... and I have to admit the sail looks pretty good at that height with a furler. I had always thought of a raised clew to be able to see around/under better ... but with a 155 I don't think anything is to be gained visually.

One tip on the sock we use with the melges with our race sails - we "loose roll" the sail - basically unfurl it a bit just to the point where the sock can barely fit on. Two benefits:

1) less tension on the material, reducing the tendency to develop a "hook" in the luff

2) at least on ours, when to sock is full of sail (no slack material), it wont flap in the breeze.

We also "reverse roll" the sail every other week, although not so easy on a big J #1.

-dan

this is a follow up on one of my comments above that i would never put a dacron UV cover on a high tech sail again. The two fabrics just don't do well together ...

So the alternative is a sock. After a couple of months screwing around with this option I think we have the basics down so it doesn't seem like a hassle anymore.

I subject you guys to one more of my training videos: Zipping the Genny Sock.

Harken MKIV Unit 1 vs. Unit 0: Harken MKIV Unit 1 is mention a couple of type in the forum. But did did anyone went into into fitting a Unit 0 - just for the sake of less windage?

Hi David,

Rereading your detailed answer from a few years back.
Did you (need to) add the harken halyard deflector to prevent twists upstairs?
And if you did, did you have to change your OD #1 luff to work around it?

Cheers,