J/30 Class Association

What Sails are Fast & Last Long?

Posted By: Rhapsody #348

What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/16/06 12:53 AM

The timing of this posting should allow some feedback from those who are having fun at Cedar Point for the 2006 North Americans. I'm looking for feedback since the 2005 rule changes on sail materials took effect. I need replacement sails on Rhapsody in the following order;

1. Main (replacement before spring 2007)
2. #1 (replacement before spring 2008)
3. Spinnaker (replacement before spring 2008)

There was a great thread discussing this topic in 2004. Can those of you who have recent experience with the lofts please provide your experience with the one design sails you've bought? I'm interested on what is "fast" and like other J/30 owners, want the investment to last a few years. Info on lofts, materials, prices, experiences with loft, etc. would be helpful.

Thanks,
Bill - Rhapsody J/30 #348
Posted By: the redhead

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/16/06 09:06 AM

Hey Bill...I have been hearing all sorts of comments...unfortunately the most common scuttlebutt about sails has been that they don't measure in as they are supposed to... mine was too big, another spent big bucks only to find it cut too small...not an advantage on the race course. Why don't you hop in the car and come down for the after race party...get it from the horse's mouth?
Posted By: Rhapsody #348

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/16/06 11:56 AM

Quote
Originally posted by the redhead:
Hey Bill...I have been hearing all sorts of comments...unfortunately the most common scuttlebutt about sails has been that they don't measure in as they are supposed to... mine was too big, another spent big bucks only to find it cut too small...not an advantage on the race course. Why don't you hop in the car and come down for the after race party...get it from the horse's mouth?


Cynthia,

I'd love to join the party but have committed to one of the last beer can races we can do this season. At least I'm taking the time today to troll the Newport Boat Show and take in all the sights. I'm going to get quotes from all the lofts that are exhibiting there. Based on your comments, sounds like I should get a written guarantee that the sails will pass one-design measurement criteria, or they replace them. Any specifics on what measurements / sails had problems? I remember at the 2004 NAs, Laserbeam had a brandy new Z-Sails spinnaker that was cut a couple of inches too long (failed Spinnaker Half Width along luff as I recll).

Make sure you save some rum for all those other J/30 sailors there....

Bill
Posted By: D. Bartley

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/18/06 04:29 PM

I suppose for fast, North Sails New Orleans designs by Benz Faget have a pretty good track record. Zephyr was using a new panelled kevlar #1 that seemed pretty darned quick.

I think North chutes are as fast as anyone else' (as long as it's cut for class oversized pole that is).

Zephyr used to have a really full "sharkskin" main. They weren't using it this weekend, but I don't know why. Sharkskin seems to be out of favour these days after the J/105s had problems with it in their mains.

My experience is mostly with the midwest North loft. The 3DL #1s I've had generally last 2-3 years if taken care of. Main and chute for quite a while. I'm still using sails from '95 in PHRF races and doing just fine. We have a new panelled kevlar #1, rather similar to Zephyr's. I expect it may last longer than the 3DLs.

I'm not sure where Rhapsody lives... RI? Benz' sails are pretty unique, and there's no tuning guide for them, so trying to get your rig set up to work properly with the sails might be a challenge.
Posted By: Rhapsody #348

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/18/06 04:41 PM

Quote
Originally posted by D. Bartley:
....
I'm not sure where Rhapsody lives... RI? Benz' sails are pretty unique, and there's no tuning guide for them, so trying to get your rig set up to work properly with the sails might be a challenge.



Thanks Dennis. Yes, I'm in RI
Posted By: D. Bartley

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/18/06 05:53 PM

Kool.

What happened to the Narraganset Bay boats at the NAs this year?

BTW, if you need a good foredeck, I happen to know of one in Kingston [Linked Image]
Posted By: dwl

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/18/06 06:56 PM

Sharkskin isn't made anymore, because the manufacturers had massive production issues with it. Sharkskin was basically normal dacron made with a different binder/sizing material (which gave it the grey color) What I heard from North was that the manufacturer was swapping from making normal dacron to Sharkskin and back, and they never found a good way to clean the full set of equipment between runs, so that they ended up with large rolls of material which was 90% white dacron with bits of Sharkskin binder mixed in, an vice/versa. If you got your sail built from a roll of well behaved Sharkskin, you were a happy camper. (We still have use our '02 Sharkskin main for low end stuff, and it's shape has held up quite well) But... If you got a bad batch, the stuff distorted and stretched, and did so unevenly, making for really, really ugly sails in a hurry.

- David
Posted By: David Erwin

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/19/06 03:51 AM

If anyone would like to contact Benz Faget, his e-mail address is
benz@sales.northsails.com .

His North sails work well for us.



[This message has been edited by David Erwin (edited 09-18-2006).]
Posted By: Steve Buzbee

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/19/06 04:59 AM

I'll second that looking from (too far) behind Dave/Zephyr. The number one they had looked sturdy, had much more depth forward than the others I saw, and was blazingly fast in heavy and ultralight, maybe a little less dominant in medium light (of course those races didn't matter much to team Zephyr).
Posted By: Rhapsody #348

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/20/06 05:52 PM

Quote
Originally posted by David Erwin:
If anyone would like to contact Benz Faget, his e-mail address is
benz@sales.northsails.com .

His North sails work well for us.


David - thanks for the info. Question that I'll probably end up asking North directly, but maybe somebody knows...

The Loft in RI is 1/2 mile from me. Does the Loft in LA have a "secret recipe" or should I be able to get the same results here. Henry Little is the local North guy I've dealt with in RI. I would expect that the local loft should be able to help with initial rig tuning to get the most from the sails.

Thanks,
Bill
Posted By: D. Bartley

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/20/06 06:25 PM

The Nola loft seems to do it's own thing generally. I'm sure Benz will talk with anyone to help get his designs working for your boat.

I believe the other designs come from the Annapolis area. Willy Keyworth there has sailed with J/30s a bit, but I don't believe he designed the sails.
Posted By: Steve Buzbee

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/20/06 07:04 PM

The jib that Zephyr had up was very different from the rest of the North jibs at the NA's (it was a tri radial panel sail for one thing), and was definitely an independent Benz creation.

The 3DL jibs all appear about the same.
Posted By: dwl

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/21/06 12:04 AM

Yeah, it also looked more rounded in the entry to my eye, compared to our 3DR, the various 3DLs, and even our older panelled pentex triradial, from before the dropping of restrictions on the #1. Looking at the pix of the various boats, it looks deeper up front than any other #1 being flown. Now, what I can't decide, especially in the Friday pix, is whethere this is just superior driving and trim. Zephyr is just about perfectly feathered in every Friday shot, with the jib drawing, which nobody else was managing.

- David
Posted By: the redhead

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/21/06 02:34 PM

Will Keyworth has made alot of J30 sails in Annapolis... he was here for NOODs on Meanie... worth talking to. Chuck at Doyle in Annapolis has a J30 himself... which is sometimes handy input. I have some sails from Doyle, which were sold to me in the Carib but I was told that all J30 sails are made in Marblehead, guess they are on the computer? Pretty standard issue main, not as roachy as my North main cut in San Diego. The UK main I was using at NAs was cut in Annapolis to "J30 Class specs" and assembled at the loft here in Florida... for a boat that no longer exists (thanks to Katrina) I had it in Annapolis during race week and the UK loft class measurer measured it in "short" and blamed it on the UK Miami loft... go figure. In California I have sailed under Ullman sails almost exclusively...but the boats custom and Dave said "a J30 sail is a J30 sail is a J30 sail" and he advised me not to buy from his loft because they couldn't match the prices from lofts set up to do lots of J30 sails. I do believe him about the price, not really about the cut. I'll have to save my pennies for his sails....someday.

Remember - "All sail lofts are not created equal"

PS I never did like 3DLs
Posted By: Bob Rutsch

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/21/06 05:46 PM

I generally encourage people to buy from and work with a local sailmaker to help get the most out of the sails. Plenty of those in Newport. If they won't come do 2-3 races per new sail find someone else. If you don't have a local sailmaker, Zephyr's looked good on them, but keep in mind they have a crack crew to make them go. Of the two Annapolis boats Big K used UK main/chute with Quantum #1/#3. Bebop is all UK. Would have been ince to have a Kevlar #2 on Friday. We were happy with our speed in light and heavy, just not too smart tactically Saturday.
Posted By: dbows

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/21/06 06:40 PM

I have a question about main sails. I have a radial cut pentex main, but I noticed that there was not a single radial cut main at the NA's. I looked at the rules and there does not seem to be a restriction on how the sail is cut, just material. Is this correct? If so then have people found there is no advantage to a radial cut main?

David
#397
Posted By: Joe Ruzzi

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/21/06 08:06 PM

Im responding to "the Redhead's" comment about her mainsail measuring in short even though it was made by the same loft. My understanding of most sail lofts today is that they have single site which cuts the panels and then stitches (or bonds) them into a "blank". However, they leave the edges unfinished but oversized, then ship it to the local loft for final finishing of the edges as well as the installation of headboard, cringles and boltrope/slugs. The idea is that the local loft is supposed to measure the specific rig on that individual boat and make accomodations as needed for the final sail. It sounds like in this case, the Miami loft might have been a little too aggressive in trimming and finishing the sail.
Posted By: the redhead

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/22/06 01:50 AM

I agree...if a sailmaker won't come out with you to make sure you are going fast with the sails you bought...move on. Joe...I'm just glad I didn't have to deal with who to blame on that UK main...when nobody takes the responsibility on a product I just step on out the door. Lots of hardwood floor to dance on...
Posted By: David Erwin

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/22/06 04:15 AM

The World is Flat. Today's North sails panels are made in various parts of the world. For example, the panels for our new tri radial #1 kevlar genoa were made in Sri Lanka and assmebled in the states.

Benz is a long time Zephyr sailor and has a good deal of experience designing sails. In my mind, there is no question were the best J/30 main is designed and built. Next time you are in New Orleans, please visit the North loft and talk to Benz. I think you'll like his ideas.

David Erwin
Posted By: Steve Buzbee

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/22/06 04:47 AM

No offense Dave-main looked good (even with Katrina mud) but the jib looked awesome-and completely different from the class norm.
Posted By: David Erwin

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/22/06 09:46 PM

I agree, that Genoa performed well.

So what are you thoughts on the importance of a good main vs. genoa. Shouldn't both be considered equally important and tuned to work together?

The stain on the main from from Katrina flood waters when Zephyr went down. We were able to retrieve the main, but not the Genoa. I would hate to see what the Genoa looked like after Zephyr was raised from the lake.

[This message has been edited by David Erwin (edited 09-22-2006).]

[This message has been edited by David Erwin (edited 09-22-2006).]
Posted By: Steve Buzbee

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/23/06 02:48 AM

Absolutely true as to matched sails(and I meant no disrespect for the Katrina stain-it served as a constant reminder of the hell you guys have been through down there)-but that jib just looked so totally different from the 3DL sails at the regatta, and on the first day, you could almost see the deep rounded luff curve push you guys through the chop. Did it strike you guys that you launched out on port tack (into the chop) every time?

Obviously rig set up, steering, weight position, traveler position, and angle to the waves played a big role-but that jib just looked awesome, while your main didn't look all that different from mine (I know for a fact that Naptown adjusted their shapes closer to Benz's after the last NA's). The photos are very interesting to look at as far as Friday is concerned...

Hat's off to you guys on Zephyr-nice and fun to hang with off the water, incredible competitors on. And thanks for not hitting me this time around (but did you have to give me so much damn space?).
Posted By: David Erwin

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/24/06 04:52 AM

Remember, life is good on the "high side".

How many people "cross sheeted" on Friday?

Did everyone fly a #1?

I would like to hear from the Fuzzy Wuzzy team. Those guys/gals were on our tail.


[This message has been edited by David Erwin (edited 09-25-2006).]
Posted By: dbows

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/24/06 01:54 PM

Team J.Doe flew the #1 for the first two races then we went to the #3. I think the less heel equalized the less sail area for us. We seemed to continue to hang with the back half of the fleet (-:, of which there were a few that were still flying the #1.

I think if it would have blown like that on Sunday not Friday the crew would have worked enough together by then to handle the boat a bit better with the #1.

Friday was a hell of a lot of fun sailing though!!! Perfect J/30 weather, well maybe without the rain.

dbows
#397
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/25/06 01:45 AM

I talked to Bengt a bit Sunday night after all was said and done. He said that FW had their new #1 up for only the first leg of the first race on Friday, and suffered some delamination. After that they used their #3 on Friday and their old #1 thereafter.
Posted By: B Johansson

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/25/06 05:25 PM

A few comments from one of the cheap seats - 3 year old small loft sails.
In my opinion team Zephyr would have won regardless of the sails used - they sailed faster and smarter than the rest of us.
We had to use our #3 all day Friday after the two top seams failed in our new cross-cut #1 (replacement will be a panel tri-radial). We would have used the #1 in all but 3 legs Friday, it was painful when the wind dropped to about 14 knots.
I think Bebop was very fast upwind on Friday and Smiles/Big Kahuna had very good speed in the light/medium air Sunday. In the very light air on Saturday I think Fuzzy Wuzzy was as fast as any.
I would like to try cross sheeting, we always do it in the J/24. Any problems with the lazy sheet kinking in the turning block or the cabin top winches being too small?
Posted By: dwl

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/25/06 06:02 PM

Hey, for all us folks who haven't worked it out, how does team Zephyr rig for cross sheeting? I'd rather learn from the clever folks than re-invent the wheel myself.

- David
Posted By: D. Bartley

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/25/06 06:41 PM

Dave can probably describe it better I'm sure...

It looks like they attach a D ring to the primary winch using a sail tie. To that ring they attach a turning block. Run the sheet through the turning block, then up to the secondary on the opposite side.

Dunno what they do for spinnaker winches when they get to the top mark... use the halyard winch temporarily?
Posted By: Bob Rutsch

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/25/06 08:21 PM

NOAA data for W LIS 44040 not far from CPYC for Fri 9/15

Time, Dir, Spd kt, Gust, notes
10:19 090 15.6 19.4 First start 10:30
10:45 090 15.6 19.4
11:00 090 15.6 19.4
11:19 090 15.6 19.4
11:30 090 15.6 19.4 Est end first race
11:45 090 15.6 17.5
12:15 090 11.7 13.6 Est start 2nd Race
12:19 090 11.7 13.6
12:30 090 11.7 15.6
12:45 100 15.6 19.4
13:00 110 17.5 19.4
13:19 100 17.5 21.4 Est end 2nd race
13:30 100 15.6 19.4
13:45 100 17.5 19.4 Est start 3rd Race
14:00 100 15.6 19.4
14:19 100 15.6 19.4
14:45 100 15.6 19.4
15:00 100 13.6 17.5
15:19 090 13.6 15.6
15:45 090 13.6 15.6 Est end 3rd race

Estimating times after start of first race, but shows there was not quite enough breeze for #3. The gusts over 20 near the end of second race encouraged us to try the #3 for the third race. Immediately after start it was the wrong sail, but fine halfway up the leg. Ok for second beat, but changed downwind to the #1 for the last beat.
Posted By: dwl

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/25/06 08:37 PM

If I were superstitious, I'd swear that the breeze on Friday was custom tailored to make the J/30 fleet regret having dropped the #2 as an active racing sail. :-) Baring the boys from New Orleans, I think many of us would have loved a #2 for about 2/3 of the beats.

- David
Posted By: D. Bartley

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/25/06 10:29 PM

When was the #2 dropped? As far as I know, you're no longer required to carry it, but that doesn't prevent you from having one. And now it can be kevlar.

The problem with 2s was nobody had a good one, so you'd never really use it. I have a dacron 2, and use it perhaps 2 or 3 times/year on Loch Mich. I suppose it'd be pretty rare on C'Bay or LIS.
Posted By: dwl

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/26/06 12:18 AM

Yeah, I know you can have one, and we were all reminded why they sometimes make sense. Anyone with a clean crisp #2 would have been very happy on Friday. (Well, except for the Zephyr guys, but, hey, they probably could have flown a 175% jib upwind)

- David
Posted By: dbows

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/26/06 01:03 PM

With the #3 I have always cross sheeted from the block accross the cabin top to the opposite cabin top winch. Works great.

Denis are you talking about cross sheeting the #1 ? I do not know if I would trust my cabin top winches to carry the load with the #1. Is there an alternate arrangement that lets you continue to use the primary winches?

David
#397
Posted By: Bob Rutsch

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/26/06 02:11 PM

There was at least one fresh Kevlar #2 up Friday on Pale Rider. Thought I also saw one on Fat City, but could be wrong.
Posted By: D. Bartley

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/26/06 03:05 PM

I think what Zephyr did on their own boat was place a pad-eye just behind the jib track, put a turning block on that, then over to the secondary on the opposite side. Perhaps the D ring on primary is used on loaners when there are already the class limit of pad-eyes installed?
Posted By: D. Bartley

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/26/06 10:27 PM

I should have said Genoa track, not jib... between the track and the primary winch.
Posted By: sjans

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/27/06 12:22 AM

We were docked next to team Zephyr,(that's the closest we got) so we had a good look at the boat.
They had a block tied with a regular sail-tie on the primary winches and were using the secondary winches to trim the genoa.

Bob, I wish it was fresh kevlar, but it was a cruising dacron #3.
Posted By: dbows

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/28/06 01:25 AM

Has anyone ever tried the Lopez blocks like on the J24 for cross-sheeting? I bet you could put them on the very end of the Genoa track nearest the primary winch.

For those who do not know they are a stand up block with a cam cleat that is angled so that the cam trips when the line is sheeted by a winch. So you sheet in by hand and the cam hold until you start trimming with the winch on the windard side.

dbows
#397
Posted By: D. Bartley

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/28/06 03:49 PM

One problem that Zephyr had when the turning block was placed farther forward was when you led the sheet from the port side up to the starboard secondary the line would chafe badly on the coach roof. The problem doesn't occur with the starboard sheet because the line is led to the outboard side of the drum (hope that makes sense?).

I suppose one solution would be to reverse the gearing on the starboard secondary so you'd wrap the line counter-clockwise. Z's initial fix was to move the starboard secondary winch aft onto a pedestal (for lack of a better word). The class decided that moving winches about was an illegal modification.
Posted By: David Erwin

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/28/06 10:42 PM

Dennis, that class ruling was in 1992-1994 time frame I think. We attempted to cover the chafing with a peice of metal. In 2001, the class also ruled against the metal as well. So we simply allowed the chafing.

There are probably several ways to accomplish the same goal. On loaner boats, Zephyr uses a low tech method of tying a block to the primarys with a North Sails sail tie.

The complete goal here is to sail the boat flat when the wind is on. This is harder to accomplish if the #1 is trimmed from the low side.
Posted By: David Erwin

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/28/06 10:48 PM

Quote
Originally posted by D. Bartley:
Dave can probably describe it better I'm sure...

It looks like they attach a D ring to the primary winch using a sail tie. To that ring they attach a turning block. Run the sheet through the turning block, then up to the secondary on the opposite side.

Dunno what they do for spinnaker winches when they get to the top mark... use the halyard winch temporarily?


Dennis,

We hoist and cleat the Spinnaker at the mast.
Posted By: dwl

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/28/06 11:04 PM

So, ahh.... just what is the safe working load of a North Sails Sail Tie? I'm also trying to make sure I understand how the sail tie is secured to the primary. Just a loop around the barrel of the drum? How much load is being put where on the drum? I'm imagining most of the load is sideways, effectively in directions the winch is expected to handle, but some must be vertical, effectively loading up the top locking plate and the snap ring (Not that we don't end up with those sorts of loads on winches from time to time anyway)

I'm just trying to understand the implications of playing with loads like this, so we can do it safely.

- David
Posted By: Eric Whan

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/29/06 03:11 AM

I've never tried a cross-sheeting set-up, so please forgive my ignorance.

Why not just put one wrap on the leeward primary, and then cross over to the windward secondary or even the windward primary? Why does one need the turninng block?
Posted By: Steve Buzbee

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 09/29/06 03:55 AM

Is there any reason that cross sheeting is to the secondary winches instead of the primaries? Don't the 24's go from the Lopez block to a primary?
Posted By: dbows

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 10/02/06 05:41 PM

The 24s us the Lopez blocks which frees the winches. If you have the block on the primaries then you cannot use the windward winch since it also has a block on it.

I think a Lopez all the way aft on the Genoa track may work.

DB
#397
Posted By: Steve Buzbee

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 10/03/06 05:29 AM

Oops-forgot about that. Never mind...
Posted By: Bob Rutsch

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 10/03/06 02:41 PM

Dave, I think Dennis was asking about trimming not hoisting the chute. Cross-sheeted genoa would be on same side as afterguy. What then?

BTW Zephyr's current cross-sheeting method is IMHO within the rules which give latitude on use of blocks for trimming. I believe it was the metal mounting bracket moving the winch aft that was ruled illegal, though I only saw pictures. News to me that simple strip of metal to protect the gelcoat from chafe would be a problem.
Posted By: David Erwin

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 10/04/06 07:55 PM

Dennis,

What was your specific question about the Spinnaker? I am having a senior moment.

Bob,

Yes, the position of the starboard side seconday was the issue. It was considered an unapproved modification. After the class ruling, we moved the secondary back to its original position, but used a pad which was approved by the class.

Again, there are many ways to skin this cat. Simply get the weight on the high side.

Regarding the sail tie question. We tie a block with several wraps around the primary using a North Sails sail tie. North makes the best sail tie in the industry. Just kidding. Pretty low tech huh?
Posted By: Rhapsody #348

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 10/17/06 11:53 PM

Quote
Originally posted by D. Bartley:
The Nola loft seems to do it's own thing generally. I'm sure Benz will talk with anyone to help get his designs working for your boat.


Well back to the original intention of this thread (good tangent on cross sheeting though!)...I corresponded with Benz today and asked if he would work with Henry Little at the RI North loft to share his secrets for having similar sails made at Zephyr's local North loft. Benz's reply is;

"...I consider the J-30 as a one-design boat and yes you can order the sails through Henry however past experience is the sails do not come out like Scott's sails even though I have tried to share my designs with the North designers. I can only guarantee this to be so when the sails are ordered here. I can assist you with a great tuning guide which will match the sails ...."

So my dilemma is to figure out if I want the recipe repeated without the local support, or the potential of duplicating the recipe but with local loft support. I'll be speaking with other folks too, so feel free to weigh in with your comments and recommendations.

Bill
Posted By: dbows

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 10/18/06 01:16 AM

Quote
Originally posted by whk:
Well back to the original intention of this thread (good tangent on cross sheeting though!)...I corresponded with Benz today and asked if he would work with Henry Little at the RI North loft to share his secrets for having similar sails made at Zephyr's local North loft. Benz's reply is;

"...I consider the J-30 as a one-design boat and yes you can order the sails through Henry however past experience is the sails do not come out like Scott's sails even though I have tried to share my designs with the North designers. I can only guarantee this to be so when the sails are ordered here. I can assist you with a great tuning guide which will match the sails ...."

So my dilemma is to figure out if I want the recipe repeated without the local support, or the potential of duplicating the recipe but with local loft support. I'll be speaking with other folks too, so feel free to weigh in with your comments and recommendations.

Bill


I am having the same issue here in Marblehead. Seems the reason you work with a large sail maker is to access shared design ideas but that seems not to be the case with all North lofts. I am sure Benz is getting benefits from being part of North Sails, he should give back to it without friction.

I can understand people who do not have access to a local North loft buying from Benz, but the people who have a loft in their own town need to support and need the support of their own loft.


David
#397
Posted By: 311 Temptation

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 10/18/06 01:56 AM

If I am reading Benz's reply correctly, he is saying he did indeed share the sailmaking info within the North infrastructure but the result was a funky sail. I guess I'd ask my North sailmaker if he could straight up take the order, and give me an exact Benz sail, just like Team Z. And service it.
Posted By: Bob Rutsch

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 10/19/06 04:04 PM

Is it really a surprise to learn that there is a difference between a sail made by Benz Faget at his loft (assuming that is the case) and one designed by him but manufactured in Stevensville, Milford, Nevada, or Sri Lanka?
Posted By: dbows

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 10/20/06 03:40 PM

From what I understand Benz is using a different design software than the standard North loft and there is some work involved in getting his design into the North design software. My loft here in Marblehead has committed to getting his design into the North design software so they can use it in the the North molds. The question becomes how well the designs are migrated to the standard North software on wheter the sails are exact copies.

Now please remember this is what I am being told. The truth may very.

David
#397
Posted By: D. Bartley

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 10/20/06 05:01 PM

Dave,

The question about the spinnaker...

When you cross sheet the #1, what do you use for spinnaker winches? The halyard winches? or somehow switch to the secondaries?
Posted By: RobC222

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 11/08/06 03:02 PM

Quote
Originally posted by dbows:
Has anyone ever tried the Lopez blocks like on the J24 for cross-sheeting? I bet you could put them on the very end of the Genoa track nearest the primary winch.

For those who do not know they are a stand up block with a cam cleat that is angled so that the cam trips when the line is sheeted by a winch. So you sheet in by hand and the cam hold until you start trimming with the winch on the windard side.

dbows
#397


Does anyone have photos of the "Lopez" setup on either a J30 or J24?
Posted By: dbows

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 11/09/06 12:40 PM

Quote
Originally posted by RobC222:
Does anyone have photos of the "Lopez" setup on either a J30 or J24?



Rob,
Here is the product from the layline site:
http://www.layline.com/prodinfo.asp?number=J24LBH

David
Posted By: Bob Rutsch

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 11/09/06 04:53 PM

Having used the Lopez blocks on a J/24, it's doubtful they would be effective cross sheeting a J/30. The setup depends on quickly trimming all the slack out of the sheet before it loads up. That's going to be much harder to do with the larger more powerful J/30 sail.
Posted By: RobC222

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 11/09/06 06:26 PM

Quote
Originally posted by Bob Rutsch:
Having used the Lopez blocks on a J/24, it's doubtful they would be effective cross sheeting a J/30. The setup depends on quickly trimming all the slack out of the sheet before it loads up. That's going to be much harder to do with the larger more powerful J/30 sail.


Thanks dbow for the link.

I see your point Bob, loads are much higher in our genny.

On the J29, we have two trimmers. When the 1st trimmer breaks the old sheet, the 2nd trimmer is taking in the new sheet very fast under little load. He then takes one wrap on the leeward primary, jumps to the high side with the tail takes 2 wraps on the windward primary, the #1 trimmer is waiting with the handle, slaps it in and trims in the last 2-4 inches under normal load.

If we are in light-moderate air (a lot of the time here in Detroit!), the #2 trimmer pre-loads the new primary with wraps and handle, and stays on the low side for fine trim.

No extra hardware involved, and the weight shifting occurs so fast (during middle of the tack when the boat is flat) that no time/speed is lost.

There is some side load on the winch, but the deck is very solid there, and I don't see that being an issue with most boats.
Posted By: dbows

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 11/10/06 01:01 PM

I also agree the loads are a bit much particulary since this is most important when the wind is up which means the loads are up.

I am still wondering if you can use a large standup block at the far aft end of the genoa track as a turning block to the windard primary?

David
#397
Posted By: Rhapsody #348

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 12/22/06 04:24 PM

Since I started this thread, I thought it would be appropriate to let everyone know what the decision was. I want to thank everyone who weighed in, plus the other good discussions on cross sheeting, etc.

I corresponded with Benz Faget in New Orleans and my local North Sails rep in RI, Henry Little. Henry spoke with Benz at the North annual sales meeting and was able to work out the transfer of information so I can work through the local North loft in Portsmouth, RI. I've bit the bullet and am getting a new main, #1 and spinnaker (Merry Christmas!!!). The #1 will be a Kevlar Tri-Radial. I couldn't justify the added expense of 3DL, and they still need to transfer Benz's design to 3DL. Henry explained that the entire computer controlled mold used in the 3DL process is tied up if it is making a small sail or a large sail, thus the sailmaker would prefer to keep the machine busy making larger sails where they get a better return on use of the equipment. The 3DL premium cost on our "small" J/30 sails is effectively paying for the unused portion of the mold that is tied up during the construction of a smaller sail. Another interesting point was that the 3dr process is temporarily on hold while they update software for the 3dr machine in Toronto. Henry explained that this was a huge capital investment by North and they want to make sure it is producing the designs correctly. I suspect that the same pricing analogy for 3dr sails would apply for J/30 designs once this process is up and running again - we'll see.

Henry is going to cleanup Benz's tuning guide and make it available on the North Sails web site, along with the ability to order Benz's "special sauce" sails. I'm not sure what the timing is for all this, but I would suspect that by the spring, this will be available for all the J/30 sailors to take advantage of.

For Benz - if you are reading this forum I'd like to thank you for sharing your designs. You've had great accomplishments with Team Zephyr and have been a positive influence to the J/30 fleet. I want to buy you a beer or two next time we sail in an event together.

For the rest of the J/30 sailors - look at David Bows call for boats at the NOOD Regatta in Marblehead 26-29 July 2007. We're hoping to get a good turnout and I want to try out my new sails there!

Happy Holidays to Everyone,
Bill - Rhapsody J/30 #348


[This message has been edited by whk (edited 12-22-2006).]
Posted By: dbows

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 12/23/06 04:12 PM

Bill,

Thanks for the update.

I nearly bought a new 3DR this winter, probably will in the spring. The story I have about the 3DR is that it currently is targeted at boats 40ft and under. The price was less than the 3DL. I think it will help the smaller boats get these sails at a better price because we will not be bumping the TP52 from getting their 3DL sails (-:

David
#397
Posted By: David Erwin

Re: What Sails are Fast & Last Long? - 12/31/06 04:37 AM

Bob,

To answer your question about the difference between a Benz J/30 main and a main designed in another loft - I think there is a hidden secret here.

After the main is completed Benz does a special "mojo" dance while preparing the sail for shipment. It is quite the sight to see. I'll video tape the next episode and post.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!
David Erwin
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