J/30 Class Association Forums J/30 Forum The Boat, Sails and Equipment Shopping Instruments, GPS Data on ST60 Speed display

Hi All, Those of you whom have purchased the ST60 instruments, Can you get the GPS Waypoint VMG and BTW displayed on the ST60 Speed or the Tridata from the nmea interface. I know I can if I get the Graphic display but I'm trying not to have to. The lack of GPS information is pushing me toward Tacktick. Fresh Opinions wanted.
Thanks

I ended up with the ST60 wind/depth/speed even with the same situation. We decided to just use the GPS dislay not integrated with the wind/water instruments for our VMG. Pain because the GPS is on a swing arm into the companion way rather than in the instrument cluster. Really thought hard about the TacTic stuff but decided the cost was better spent on the sail fund. Rather than bulkhead mount, we ended up fabbing an integrated instrument bridge across the weatherhood like the J105s, and then had to provide wire routing. TacTic gear would have solved that problem. I struggled with what you are facing and could not solve it without the extra couple hundred bucks for the integrated ST60 package. Puts you near the costs of TacTic. We were almost to tying in the autohelm, but that extra step should have pushed us to newer Raymarine or the TacTic set.

If interested I have some pics of the instrument bridge, the wire route covers and internal moulding/wire raceways to get all our wires off the bulkhead inner face. We are down to Port and Starboard compasses on the blukhead and no wires catch things up on. Drop me a note at jageck@earthlink.net if you want to see what we did.

I started building a TackTick system (got a couple displays, compass, transmitter), but the cost to finish building it out is ridiculous so I'm selling it on ebay.

Instead, I'm getting the newer simrad stuff.

I plan to get the IS20 Combi for basic speed/depth/temp, a IS20 Wind, possibly a compass, then the IS20 Graphic.

I will display all the GPS/Bearing/Bearing info on the Graphic, and it can also be used to watch trends in any of the data, vmg, etc. I can always add a 2nd graphic later.

I plan to mount this on a instrument bridge but i have yet to figure that. I was thinking about getting one of these, but fabricating a different bar mount that hugged the deck and was less clunky.

JoeBob, I'd love to see your instrument bridge, I'm emailing you now.

Dan - you've got the most expensive components with the TackTick stuff now, and you've already done the install work. I'd recommend sticking with it and buying the TackTick T122 NMEA interface or the T106 Wireless Remote system that includes the NMEA interface. That way you can add on whatever you want that supports standard NMEA 0183 protocol outside the TackTick system and put that data on the TackTick displays. I wouldn't take a step backwards with the Simrad stuff since you've already made the investment. You won't regret it. I built up the Rhapsody TackTick system over time and have a complete network integrated with 2 GPS units, Autohelm and a PC. Read more at this link.

Bill - well - I added it all up - after adding what I think I could get for the TackTick stuff already purchased, the difference was something like $1,000 more to continue with TackTick.

The big items were the difference in wind instrument cost, and the fact that the IS20 Graphic can display 4 data items. So for typical offshore racing mode I would have a single IS20 showing Heading, Bearing, Distance to next, and SOG. With the occasional glance to wind that would basically be all I would look at. With Tacktick I had to buy a 2nd dual display to do the same.

Putting that money into a new chute this year.

Dan - you do know that you don't need a TackTick wind instrument to integrate everything if you added the T122 NMEA interface. Any wind instrument that talks over NMEA 0183 can integrate with what you have. The Simrad IS20 wind instrument has a NMEA 0183 interface according to the manuals on their site. I still think you are better off keeping what you have and adding the T122 NMEA interface. You could also add the IS20 Graphic display as it has NMEA 0183 and can act as a repeater. If you were going with a graphic display, you should check out the Garmin GMI 10 - a very nice small programmable color display that talks NMEA 0183.

Just remember to factor in the time to redo what you've already done if you decide to take it out and replace it. That's not trivial, particularly since you and your boat are not co-located!

Dan, Are your TackTicks listed on ebay yet, or Forum site? i might be interested in them. Don

Hey Bill - you convinced me to take a much deeper look at this!

One question right off the top is how reliable VMG-to-wind and true wind speed/direction are when you are mixing and matching instrument types using NMEA. I've heard a lot of griping about these numbers being off, and seems like getting compass from one source and wind/speed from another might not help things. Think this will be a problem?

That said, given what I have already, and my display needs (analog wind, depth, water speed, compass heading, COG, SOG, bearing, distance to next - plus ability to scroll to stuff like VMG when needed), I figure the following:

Pure Tacktick - $2,380 - Buy: wind, 2 x dual displays, NMEA adapter

Pure Simrad - $1,700 - Buy: IS20 wind, graphic, combi, compass. Sell: Tacktick hull tx, dual display, hull tx, compass

Hybrid - $1,900 - Buy: IS20 wind, graphic, tacktick NMEA

Both the Tacktack & Hybrid options have me using a cheesy old NEMA depth gauge I already have to avoid buying another display.

So the hybrid and all simrad options are close enough to be a wash...at the moment I'm leaning toward the hybrid so I have the option of adding the wireless TackTick handheld unit in the future...assuming I can trust the calculated true and vmg numbers.

-dan

Dan,

The answer has two parts - first is the same no matter what you have. The data is only as good as the calibration. Take the time to set things up right and calibrate the sensors to whatever the instrument manufacturers allow & recommend.

The next part is associated with data rate. Some purists will tell you that you need a 10 hz update rate to be meaningful. I work on the philosophy that the boat as a "system" has a much slower response time and that the once per second update rate offered by NMEA 0183 is sufficient. You can also set different averaging and integration times on various instruments. Thus the calculations for VMG, true wind, etc are non-issues. Look at it this way - when you see boat speed are you looking at absolute value or tweaking to get the most speed.

You'll find that you have more data than you know what to do with. Try a number of data display combinations and learn what works best for you. Upwind you may want something different than downwind. Crusing waypoint displays are great, but not needed around the buoys.

On my "system" - all the sensors are TackTick. The GPS is Garmin or Lorance and my Autohelm is Raymarine X-5. I successfully integrate them all and can say the autohelm performance is excellent. Plus the autohelm is using its own roll / pitch sensor. I have used it in relative wind steering mode both close hauled and off the wind. the wind data and GPS data from two different sources through the TackTick to the Raymarine Autohelm works just fine.

I think you'll be happy you considered opening your aperture to work a system that integrates what you have with what you can buy to add on, rather than starting from scratch. It may take a little more effort on the instrument setup and configuration, but once you figure that out it will work just fine you won't have sacrificed anything in performance.

Blll and Dan,
Thanks much for your postings here. I am starting from scratch with instruments and your insights are very helpfull.
So far I think I will go with the TackTick T104 Super sail system. I have a Plotter I will interface to the nmea and connect my Raymarine ST 2000+ autopilot as well.
I will use a swing arm bracket so I can get most navigation information from the chartplotter. I also will interface my pc which I run Nobeltec Software and should get me everything I need.
The best part of the TackTick is the lack of wiring issues.
Do the Tacktick displays ever get knocked off their mounts?

I had an issue with my TackTick display getting knocked off the dovetail mount on the aft cabin top in this thread. I ended up drilling holes in the bulkhead immediately above the display and epoxied in a stainless steel sleeve with 1/4" ID that is about 3/4" deep. I set it up so the displays are mounted in the dovetail bracket, then insert a 1/4" diameter x 1.25" quick pin in the stainless sleeve to lock in the display. I've never had a problem since. I don't have to do that on the mast mounted displays, just the aft exterior cabin displays because they are subjected to people banging into them when trimming and launching the spinnaker.

I saw one get knocked off (and lost) from a mast mount. Someone hit it with a knee while jumping a halyard. Not hard, just right. We tape ours now.

Kills me there is nowhere to attach a lanyard. We joke about how much revenue that omission has brought in...

I have them and have not had them get knocked off. Your setup sounds like what I have exactly. Works great!

My Navman 3100 series wind, depth, speed and repeater displays are shot. I'm at the point now where I need to do something about it and I don't want to replace them with new Navman units. So I'm wondering if it's possible to keep my speed, depth and wind sending units and Navman Tracker 5600 chart plotter (which I will keep no matter what) but replace the displays with some NMEA compatible units. Tacktick comes immediately to mind. Trying to figure out what I'd need to make this happen. Pouring through the manuals it seems that the NMEA output from my Navman system is from the displays and not the sending units. Anyone have a clearer understanding of this problem than I do?

The NMEA output is from the displays. If the displays are shot, but the NMEA data outputs are still good, you could remount the displays as "NMEA brains" below decks to keep them dry, and get any display that accepts NMEA data to mount where you have the NAVMAN displays. The NAVMAN hull transducers are made by Airmar. The series used for the NAVMAN do not output NMEA data directly. Go to this link, then type in NAVMAN and search. You can cross reference the transducers to a number that other vendors use.

I had a NAVMAN wind instrument before I had TackTick. The displays lasted 2 years and fogged up. The wind sending unit died. David Bows had the exact same problem on Mallorca. This is a known issue with their 3100 series products.

Unfotunately it appears that Electronic manufacturers have us by the balls. Even Airmar won't make something that will talk to more than one or two units. I just bought a Raymarine ST40 with airmar triducer but that is it... won't even send to the Raymarine ST60 as far as I can tell.

C/N: Marine electronics would probably do better to standardize instead of trying to bend us over the rail.

I raced on a boat with a full NKE suite today. Nice set-up, but the same numbers still show up.

The ST40 is ancient in the marine electronics world. Raymarine didn't break out NMEA data for a long time and required everyone to interface with their propriety Seatalk bus. The ST60 series got a little better with some units having NMEA built in, but not all of them. A friend with a Catalina has ST60 series stuff and has a multi-display with a NMEA interface he connects to a Furono radar.

That's what I thought. Thanks Bill for the clarification. Well for me it's now a decision to go either Raymarine ST60+ bundle, Tacktick T104 bundle or Nexus NX Start Pack 3. The ST60+ is clearly the value choice and is the recommendation from the local installer (did I mention it rains a lot here and the integrity of the display units is a big deal). The Tacktick would be very nice but costs more money than I'm comfortable spending. The idea of bringing the units home with me out of the rain sounds very appealing as does the ability to bring them below when cruising so that I can check depth from the v-berth. Finally the NX system is a bit of an unknown but looks very interesting. Not sure how it holds up against moisture though. Anyone with any Nexus experience?

If you go TackTick, you don't have to get it all at once. Start with the T122 NMEA interface and a single T111 dual digital display. Use your existing sensors and NAVMAN displays as the "NMEA brains" to drive it. You can get speed and depth on the single dual digital display that way. Upgrade the other stuff later when you win the lottery.

It's an idea Bill but I don't know if the NMEA output is still good on the current gear or not. I found a better price on the T104 package (it's now an extra $600 over the ST60 plus instead of $1,000) so I'm considering it strongly. With the aim of adding further displays over the next few years. To be honest though I like the analogue ST60 wind instrument but I appreciate that the TackTick instrument is changeable to close hauled as well... decisions decisions.

I just checked the ST60 plus on the Raymarine site. The Wind instrument requires an additional Raymarine E85001 NMEA interface if you want to network with any other non-Seatalk stuff. A single Raymarine ST60 Plus Graphic display can interface with it via Seatalk and provide the NMEA interface to other stuff, but you would need to provide the speed and depth info to it via NMEA 0183.

You could probably verify if the NMEA interface is working on your existing stuff by making temporary connections between one of the NAVMAN display NMEA outputs and another device with NMEA such as a GPS. Some of the Garmin handhelds support NMEA. If you know someone with a display that supports NMEA 0183 ask to borrow it for the testing. That way you can determine how soon you need to spend money, and the potential upgrade paths available to you.

I know it is ancient but I only went with ST40 as I was going speed and depth only to keep my instruments simple. Value for dollar seems to be there as the display is larger and does what I need. The ST60 display was smaller and way more expensive. I am in to speed and depth for just a hair over $400. ST60 was almost double that.

I just have never really felt the need for a masthead wind instrument. I don't really need to know accurate windspeed, just how the boat feels.

The only Garmin handhelds that support NMEA appear to be the ones with an old serial output cables versus USB. For whatever reason, they will only carry their proprietary Garmin signals over USB.

Since December when I asked about this, I decided on the tacktick t104 system. The plethora of information available and ease of interfacing all the equipment made the choice for me.
Thanks

Scott are you sure that's right? According the the Raymarine web site the max character size on the ST40 dual display is 27mm while the max character size on the ST60 display is 36mm.

I can appreciate the simplicity of the ST40 system though. I know Galileo uses ST40 speed/depth as well.

I think it was comparing the character display on the ST40 dual data vs the ST60 tridata display. There isn't a dual display for ST60.

Ahhh yes... ST40 dual vs ST60 tridata. That makes sense now. Still leaning towards TackTick T104 bundle. It's a bunch of money but I really like the idea of not leaving it out in the elements and the flexibility and expandability of the system.

Wish Tactic/Ray Marine would come out with an iPad app. That would make an awesome display.

You're right but one would need a very waterproof case for it though.

For the record I took the plunge and ordered the TackTick T104 system. Haul out will likely start next weekend. Let the adventure begin... I'll try to follow-up once the instruments are installed.

Where are you hauling?

Btw, I need to borrow your keel templates.

Still trying to line that up but either Mosquito Creek or a club member owned yard in Richmond.

Scott, the boat is now up on the hard at Strait Marine in Steveston. Did the delivery during the VARC opener Sunday. Yahooo! We hit 9 kts on the GPS just as we were gybing into the south arm and never really got below 7 kts of boat speed with the main reefed and the #2 up. Average speed was around 7.5-7.8 kts with lots of 8+ moments.

Deck repair, prop rebuild, bottom work, new instruments and a kiwi grip non-slip deck are in the works.

Bill, I noticed that you use VC offshore on your bottom. Did you end up painting the Tacktick through hulls with a different paint? Or did you paint them at all?

At first I painted the through hulls with the antifouling transducer paint. I then bit the bullet and sprayed the housing for the speed and the entire depth transducer with VC offshore. I pull the speed sensor and insert the plug whenever I leave the boat. There is a warning label that tells you not to use paints with strong solvents on the transducers. I haven't had a problem. The speed sensor gets cleaned and hand painted with the transducer paint yearly.

Nice work Dom. I was excited that you were coming out to play there for a moment!

Bill if you are pulling the speed sensor whenever you leave the boat, why not skip the transducer anti-fouling all together?

That's for the times when I forget to pull it

Later in the summer when the water is warmer if it is left in for more than a couple of days, there will be growth to clean off.

Scott, even if I was, not sure if I could have kept up with the Hanse you were sailing on. Pretty sweet ride.

That is my VanIsle ride. That is one heavy boat to sail. Sometimes it takes two people on the winch to trim in the last inch of headsail

We are looking forward to beating up on Don and Cinco de Mayo around the island. Boo yah!

I have no idea when i am going to get time to get Natural High up on the hard The new knot meter is just sitting in the shed collecting dust!

Well the old Navman3100 stuff is out and the Tacktick goes in tomorrow evening. Looks like I'll be mounting both transmitters in the locker just forward of the nav station. Hopefully the NMEA 0183 v2 data from my Navman Tracker 5600 chart plotter will play nice with the Tacktick T-122 NMEA transmitter which runs on the 0183 v2.3 standard. Hopefully the moment of truth will be tomorrow.

Also the bottom is getting wet sanded with 600 grit (lots of VC Offshore left so on the advice of the boat yard we are only sanding and not recoating), deck recoring work is happening on the port primary to genoa track area, inboard of the anchor locker and around the port side chain plate. A new propeller is being fitted, as is a spreader through bar kit and new kiwigrip non-slip is being painted on. Fairing around the strut is being touched up as well as a couple of small blisters on the keel.

Let me know how you do with the thru-bar. How was getting it delivered up here? Who did you get it from?

Scott, I've emailed and phoned Annapolis rigging and yet to have a confirmed shipping date yet. I hoped to hear from him by now. So maybe that goes in after the rig goes back up? Not sure. Still a lot of work to do. Most of the deck hardware is now off but I still have to overdrill and fill all the holes before the kiwi grip can go down and I can start putting the boat back together.

The new Tacktick instruments got all wired up tonight. Quite straight forward wiring job. I'm a little worried that the depth transducer is not functioning but speed, wind and GPS data are all showing up. Very happy about that. Will have to further investigate the depth issue the next time I get down to the boat.

Dominique,

If the speed reads 0.00 then the hull transmitter is working and you probably do not have a problem with the depth transducer. The depth displays -.-- when out of the water, so unless you can force something against the depth transducer to simulate a water mass for a return, the display will not register anything. Here is a photo taken on Rhapsody a couple years back with the boat on the hard. Note the depth display at the top.

Thanks for that Bill. I'll check the sea temp data then. If I get a reading then it should all be OK then.

Yup. It all works! Now if I could only put my boat back together and get sailing that would be great.

I'm getting frustrated with instruments. All I really want or need is depth, speed and heading.

Have depth and speed from Nexus, but speed not working. Transducer at $240 has been on '2-week back order' for 6 weeks and nobody has one in stock.

This weekend during the NOOD the second of two mast mounted KVH maxi compass displays started intermittently losing one segment of the digital 8 in the ones column. The other is missing several segments and leaks. Doubtful KVH will repair either, since both are at least ten years old, and one has already been replaced. These used to be $600 each but I don't see any offered online.

I still have one original KVH display in the cockpit and could get another for $200, mounting them on the mast angled like the TackTick for less than buying the real thing.

The NS360 Tactical Compass GPS by NOVASAIL at $500 is only slightly more than the combined price of the transducer and small KVH display. It gives heading and speed, plus distance to line, although the speed is GPS based.

Anyone seen this item or have another suggestion?

BTW for Rhapsody, how do you rig the Cunningham with the displays so close to the mast?

Bob,

I redid the cunningham so it runs between the mast bracket and the mast. The hook isn't attached to the sail in the picture below, but it demonstrates how the line is routed. The blocks with the purchase are located below the bracket with the other end anchored to the plate at the mast base where the boom kicker attaches.



By the way - That's an actual display on the delivery back to Newport from Cedar Point after the 2009 NAs. Winds blowing 20-25 out of the North for a solid port tack reach the entire trip back. The TackTick displays are visible at the helm, and I can read the digits without my glasses. I have the GPS Bearing to Waypoint being transmitted over the TackTick wireless network in that photo.

Many thanks to you Bill. I now have my PC talking to my Tackticks.
I found the RMB sentences in the GPS and turned it off when using the PC as the navigator. Otherwise I turn it ON. That simple toggle is all it took. I did not need to trick the handshake with the additional connections on the DB9 connector
Thanks Again