J/30 Class Association Forums J/30 Forum The Boat, Sails and Equipment Class legal mainsail

As one who sails here, I don't think MA's approach is fair or equitable. It promotes rule-breaking. The class could expand the rules to allow lighter chutes and #1's, relieving PHRF of the arbitrary, punitive penalties (i.e., not designed to promote a fair game), and use SI's to control inventory in OD events.

Seth, I disagree most emphatically with your last post ... although I will defend to the death your right to say it! ;-) Beyond just J/30s, I feel that it's up to a given _class_ to set the standard. PHRF organizations should then validate the one-design rules. PHRF should hold to its stated belief that any modification to the one-design configuration, where one exists, is a deviation from the de-facto standard and is assumed to be speed-producing.

I think much of this discussion is a "where you stand depends on where you sit" (or sail} issue. Here on the Ches_Bay we have an active one-design calendar, so our default is one-design with PHRF as an after-thought. You've got the converse situation. Here PHRF of the Ches_Bay is unconcerned about the well-being of any given one-design fleet, the J/30 Fleet, like any one-design class, looks out for the best interests of its members.

On the specific sail issues, I remain unconvinced. I don't think that:

- Light #1 genoas,
- Laminated mains, and/or
- Lighter than .75 oz nominal chutes (which are closer to .5 oz actual weight

are cost-effective at the margin. All the high-tech sailcloth in the world isn't going to change the fundamental speed potential of a J/30, although it will definitely have the effect of raising the bar for costs to compete. Nor do I feel that (with the exception of the #3) high tech materials have a significant advantage in longevity.

I still don't see how expanding the inventory but limiting purchases would create an arms race. Having more than one primary headsail and chute means that each sail is used less, lengthening life span. At the same time, boats racing PHRF most of the time would then have inventories comparable to the competition.

J-30's are known to have ratings that disadvantage us in light air, and anything the class rules do to improve light air performance helps those of us racing in PHRF (and we do need help in light air). It also would make class light air racing (I hear there is occassionally light air down in Annapolis) a little more fun!

Joe, I disagree with that analysis and don't think that's PHRF's stated objective. Nonetheless, the class has clearly ruled in this forum that it's interest lies with the OD community that have the ability and privilege to sail exclusively with other J/30's. With that I'll bow out of this forum and thank you all for your comments.

Anyone have an estimate of the fration of total races by all J30s averaged together that are OD, PHRF, Other? I believe PHRF is the vast majority since OD racing occurs in few places. (Just how many sites have active J30 OD racing?)

At any rate, the PHRF rating spreads for either OD or PHRF base seem trivial. When's the last time 1-3 sec/mi made a difference?

By the way, I have a light #1. It's a 155, like my all purpose #1. I find it quite usefull in less than 5 knots. However, against boats that are light air specialized
I don't think there's anything to help us short of a masthead kite!

One thing I have noticed is that my kevlar main is A LOT lighter than my dacron main, but at 13 years old I'm not racing with it.

I also have to disagree with the above PHRF statement. If you are PHRF racing, the PHRF fleet sets the rules. Most fleets have defined penalties for deviations from maximum sail sizes. If you fly OD J30 sails you will be penalized. SOme, but not all PHRF fleets are nice enough to give OD boats a break if the total PHRF penalties are seen to be harsh. PHRF is not in the business of monitoring the OD class requirements of potentially dozens of diverse boats. When's tha last time the draft stripes were checked on a J30 in a PHRF fleet, what about equipment inventories? My PHRF fleet considers PHRF base the standard. Deviation is discouraged, but allowed with penalty. OD is tolerated witha slightly lesser penalty for the J30, but only 1 sec less than it would otherwise be.

Mark, obviously, I'm not a PHRF guru, but my understanding was that the whole concept of One-Design Ratings under PHRF was to do exactly what I discussed -- let the Class determine the most appropriate configuration for a boat -- then rate that specific configuration. I assume that PHRF made the realization that their sail restrictions were completely arbitrary, for example the 155% genoa limitation, esp when a lot of sport boats were coming out with blade jibs.

On the question of one-design races, I know there are limited opportunities in other areas but I can tell you off the top of my head that we had about 20 boats qualify last year with almost 30 racing days of one-design racing here on the Chesapeake.

20/545 = 3.7%.

Any others out there?

Mark, I can't let you get away with that. That's bogus! If you wanted to make a fair comparison, you would compare the number of boats * days raced by the fleet. Our AVERAGE is 12 boats on the line for every event! From what I can tell on this board there are less than a dozen active J/30 PHRF racers ...so:

12/545 = 2.2% Any others?

I am sure there are more than 12 J-30's that actively race PHRF-I know of seven between lower LIS and Raritan Bay.

I think however that this discussion of which is the bigger proportion of racing 30's is totally beside the point. I think that even purely from a resale standpoint, it would be a good idea if class rules were tailored a bit to make the boat a bit more PHRF friendly. I find it interesting that there has been no comment on the possibility of an expanded more PHRF competitive sail inventory with restrictions on frequency of sail purchases. This would seem to be a formula that would both keep costs down and PHRF light air speed up.

We have allowed other modifications to OD rules that have nothing to do with the quality of one design racing (spin pole track extensions, self tacking traveler, rigid vang, kevlar #3, aramid halyards and control lines etc.). Why is the possibility of changing sail restrictions/expanding inventory (especially w/purchase limits) so troubling?

I do think the Annapolis contingent should be more aware of the concerns of PHRF J-30 sailors. Try sailing week after week in 7 knots of breeze against S2 9.1's and J 29's with a full complement of light air sails-can you say "dirty air"?