J/30 Class Association Forums J/30 Forum The Boat, Sails and Equipment Window Replacement

I will be replacing the windows on Hullabaloo this spring. I'm looking for input from those who have replaced their windows with glass or lexan. I have inexpensive sources for either lexan or tempered glass, so I'm looking for input related to performance of both materials. Any input would be appreciated.

I'm thinking about this too. I've seen people who have used tinted auto safety glass. It is inexpensive to have them cut at an auto glass shop, and it's very durable. I think that's what Nemesis did. I'll see Mark at work tomorrow and ask him to post.

At some point I am going to need to change my windows as well, so this thread is relevant to my interests

I used safety tinted glass and love it. Seawater turns lexan and other plastic products cloudy. I called my local car auto business and asked for a list of people who do glasswork on the side. I took him a template. $75. Hullabloo I would call Bill Smith to use the same fellow who cut the windows for Awesome.

I did use auto safety glass on Nemesis when I first got her 12 years ago. At that time, I took the original plexi pieces to my local auto glass shop, and they turned out 4 perfect, slightly tinted safety glass pieces for $7.00 each. (1997) I just calked them into place with Life Calk. Last year I renewed the seals by cuting away what I could of the life caulk and pushed them out from the inside. The glass cleaned up easilly to like new condition with a razor and acetone, and I cut out the rest of the Life Calk from the frames with the razor. Then I simply reinstalled the same glass the same way. I couldn't be happier with them.
Mark

I did this project about 1.5 years ago and have been very happy with the results. There is a ton on the forums about this, but I think I can contribute a few tips:

Material - I thought about using glass, but didn't like the idea of glass on a boat (prolly more worry than actual problem). Also, I wanted to be able to remove old and install new ports at the same time (w/o a trip to the glass cutter). As David mentioned, there is a lot out there about water/salt/UV turning Lexan cloudy. However, one particular product MR10 Lexan by GE is coated to resist this, and even West sells it for use in boat ports:

http://www.westmarine.com/1/1/9643-smoked-lexan-mr10-hatch-lens-replacement-from-ge.html

I found it very easy to work with (table saw for rough, trim with a jigsaw). Also, you can buy scraps of it for pretty cheap on eBay, which is where I got mine:

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=mr....m270.l1313&_odkw=mr10&_osacat=0

Cutting Windows - I read somewhere on the forum that the holes are not exactly the same sizes, and that some users had to cut each from the previous port to get the sizing right. I went to great lengths to do this on my boat, which is 4 hours away, only to eventually find that all my new ports were essentially the exact same size and were interchangeable. Would have saved me a huge amount of time to cut them all at once. Maybe your boat is different...

Caulk - I used GE Silicon II, white. I used a ton of masking tape on both sides of a caulk line so I could smooth it to the tape with my thumb, then remove the tape. The results looked like a brand new boat. The silicon needs a bit of special attention to get dirt off when I scrub the decks, but its not that bad. I also figure the silicon will be very easy to remove and redo when the time is right. I believe there was a post about this taping method somewhere...

Hope this helps.

At the recommendation of my yard, Sintes Boat Works, I used black Silaflex on the inside and white on the outside. The black helped make a consistant blend with the dark tint while the white matched the external paint. The job cost about $100 total including glass and caulk. After 1.5 years - no leaks!

Reference:
http://www.silaflex.com/

Here is a photo of the back window. I'll try to find a better shot.

What window?

have been wanting to post the same question, never heard of a boat with windows, but now I've seen one

David - your installation is enhanced with high quality window shades. Looks like a great cruising asset. Are the window shades both for cruising and racing?

I couldn't find a better shot of the windows. Sorry. Will take one when it warms up a bit an post.

I am ok with the one you posted

back in '95 i swapped out the windows with the Lewmar opening type,,, really easy to do and the fresh air in the summer is great...

Harley,
Do you have a shot of how the windows look on the outside? I hesitated to change to opening ports for concern about spoiling the look?

Regards,
Rob

lest see if this works

another picture

I, too replaced the Plexi ports with tinted (grey) auto safety glass last Spring. I used black sealant inside and out, with masking tape, etc. It took a couple tries on the first piece to get it looking right. Attached is an exterior shot -- I don't seem to have an interior one.

Very nice

Harley's windows look great. Not as great as Dave's trimmer, but great nonetheless.

If you're simply looking to replace the ports as they were originally installed, though, I recommend a high quality plexiglass (acrylic). I know that many people use lexan, and I have in the past, but it has some limitations.

The biggest is that lexan scratches very, very easily. It is stronger than acrylic, but is more susceptible to scratching. Also, it's about 4x the cost and is more difficult to cut than acrylic. Another challenge, at least here locally, is that it's difficult to find a retailer that will sell it in a size other than a full sheet.

Acrylic's biggest limitation is that it is prone to yellowing. However, newer, high-quality acrylics have all but eliminated that issue. It's also affordable - I replaced my ports for about $20. Finally, it's very workable - it cut easily, quickly and precisely with a quality jigsaw blade.

Auto safety glass is also a reasonable option - it wont yellow or scratch - but it is a bit more expensive, particularly given that you will generally have to pay to have a pro cut the windows. I think I was quoted about $80 for all four windows by the same guy that did them for Zephyr.

I have a write-up at the link below detailing my process of replacing the ports on Rambunctious:
http://www.rambunctiousracing.com/portlights.html

Jason - great writeup on your site. I think that when I do this, I will go the auto glass route. The incremental cost is not too bad when compared with other boat expenses, and it looks like they will last forever unscratched.

good info Jason...
and i guess i need to ask
is there any reason to not allow opening ports under the one design rules....

also....

and i certainally see pros and cons

the silly wood toe rail ...
$$ to maintain, tough on the crew hiking....
any thoughts on a proposal to allow?
maybe no attachments during 1 design racing...

Harley - Class Rule excerpts for reference:

5.4 Deck Gear. No additions, relocations, or modifications are permitted except as herein provided.

5.4.1 Permitted Alterations or Additions:
.....
5.4.1.4 Deck prisms and/or ventilators which must be watertight when sealed shut.
.....
5.4.1.10 Substitution of plastic for wood toe rails.

So it appears that your opening ports are class legal if they are watertight when closed, but the metal toe rail is not class legal. If you want to discuss this as a potential rule change, please post it in the One Design Class Rules forum.

My understanding, and I would be glad to be wrong, is that the opening ports were not class legal because they required modification to the cabin side in order to install them.

Given the very limited scope of such a modification, I'll say that I'm not in favor of that as a rule.

I think there was a thread about this awhile back with that determination, but it's very, very possible that I'm "misremembering."

Here's the thread I was only partly remembering.

It looks like the determination was that opening ports are fine for the reasons Bill mentions above.

So OK -- as the windows on #505 are starting to pop out I am in the middle of replacing them

1. The original was polycarbonate ... and has turned a nice frosted glass surface. no need for curtains. Probably could have just rebed them, but because of the work to rebed them i went to the local plastic guy and got 8 windows cut ... all the same pattern for a package price ... [planning on doing 526 in June]

Promo data on Palsun

The Polycarbonate available was Palram's Palsun 2UV ... uv coated both sides. which means i can use either side out.

I have seen arcylic crack and glass delaminate and crack ... but then 25-30 year old stuff does seem to have issues no matter what was used.

2. Caulk however has changed radically over the last 25 years so i went with Sikaflex 295UV ... which is designed for polycarbonate. Anything labeled UV is nice down here.
Jamestown distributors How to for 295UV

I elected not to do the expensive cleaner and activator ... will let you know if that was a mistake 5 years from now. But from what I see this stuff really sticks to anything it touches.

QUESTION 1 -- on the original panels they seem to have run the outside edge across a grinder to give it a sloppy bevel.
I am doing the same ... but wonder what the logic is behind that?


Question 2 -- on the original panels they seem to have done nothing to the glossy inside bonding edge ... the current advice seems to be to slightly abrade it, which is what we are doing.

Vic - next time I do this, I'm doing what Mark did on Nemesis. He had tinted auto safety glass cut to shape for a very reasonable price. They hold up much better than the polycarbonate.

if it were on a vertical dog house side ... i think glass would be ok but the angle on a heel almost makes these deck like.

There is a hinckley yawl a couple of slips from me who is replacing his "glass" with 2 out of 8 cracked and a couple of others delaminating [those are in frames]. but then again stuff from those days all seem to have issues.

Nemesis is an up bay boat ... protected water 90% of the time ...

I am wondering if he beveled the edge?
And just what kind of bonding really takes place on polished glass?

some of our crew down here is amazed that we just stick these windows in without screws or frames.

I used auto safety glass ($200 for 4), bedded with marine silicone. Neat, scratch resitant and no leaks. So far, so good after a year.

I think this was the original window glazing engineering.



It included a beveled outer edge and an outside bead that helped hold the window in place?

Comments????

Quick 1 min video on removal of windows after 27 years.

background ... 505 did get a lot of pounding hull stresses over the years off Beavertail. making us think that the hull stresses were fatiguing enough to destroy bonds ... am interested to see if others were able to simply push and pop the polycarbonate windows out.

NOTE that none of the old caulk remained bonded to the polycarbonate

Vic

I replaced mine when I got Falcon in 96 used lifecaulk to bed them no problem for until last year Falcon may live up the Bay but she goes off shore to Off Soundings every year and as been out it some very heavy weather
The boat is in the shed having the decks awlgripped so the windows are out
The Plex is dead and I will go with the auto safety glass

The other option that is out there which Cory Butlin did to Blitz is to install the Lewmar opening port windows which might be real nice down south I don't cruise Falcon that much so I'll spend the money on new Self tailers this winter

Just to confuse you more, I redid mine with tinted Lexan MR10 sheet, which I bought off of ebay for next to nothing, then cut out with a table saw then a jigsaw for the curves.

MR10 is a special coated version designed for exposure to UV and abbrasion, and its nearly bullet proof. Its also really light. I did that coming up on 4 years ago and they are still crystal clear and not scratched:

Lexan* MR10 sheets improved Margard® II coating resists abrasion and defies graffiti to ensure a "like-new" appearance for many years to come. The next generation of UV absorbers, Margard® coating now incorporates enhanced UV absorbers to protect the sheet from the debilitating effects of sunlight. As a result, Lexan* MR10 is accompanied by extended warranties that are your assurance of long term product performance; 10 yr. prorated replacement warranty against breakage, yellowing, abrasion, loss of light transmission and coating delamination.^ 15 year warranty against yellowing and light transmission for qualified dual glazed systems.** Virtually unbreakable. High light transmission common to all Lexan* sheet products. Easily maintained without marring, hazing, or yellowing. Compiles with major model building codes

So OK ... to really clean the window frame it takes about 45 min apiece ... cutting off whatever was originally used, getting all traces of it off if you are going to use a high tech adhesive such as SikaFlex 295UV.

here is part 2 of the #505 window replacement series.

My previous owner used 5200. For me, it was more like 2.5 hours per port. I did all this over about 4 trips to the coast. Would love to find the guy who applied that stuff and beat him with a fresh tube of 5200.

I used simple white silicon to replace - it collects dirt a bit on the outside, but is very easy to clean with your thumb and will be very easy for the next guy.

Dremel with rough drum. and stay away from the outside deck edge ... Taylor did not break through the gel coat except for some "voids" that we see everywhere on original j30 gel coat.

Agree 5200 is dumb as many people think it is the "all" around adhesive. The four windows took 1 tube of Sikaflex 295 UV which is recommended for polycarbonate. more on that lata.

The last time I re-seated my cabin windows was 7-10 years ago.
I thought I would be smart and used black caulk thinking it would make the windows look bigger - insert prettier here - from a distance. Given that I never see the boat from more than 20 feet away, the windows don't look any bigger.
What I did gain was a mess. The black oxidizes and the crew's feet, rain, etc, drags black markes all over the cabin sides. Of course, I was also dumb enough to use it on the inside too, ugh.
It's on my list of things to do - somewhere below installing spartite around my mast.
One additional note: I've used 3M white polishing compound followed by paste wax on the windows. They clean up real nice.

just ordered safety glass windows yesterday $28.00 each not bad

So OK ... final installment on bedding Windows.

follow up note ... already have one noticeable scratch ... was impact from jaw of spin pole ... don't ask ... but I wonder how well glass would have taken knock with jaw. But then don't they have those epoxy kits to repair dings from gravel to windshields?

While I always enjoy watching Vic's videos, I'm most impressed by this young man Taylor. He always seems ready and willing to work, whether it's sailing or maintenance.

if you keep in the context of 13 year old ... kid has very surprisingly competent moments ...

Today's racing proved to him that he can only trust his senior team mates [if they haven't been on the boat recently] to remember to do the right thing only "most" of the time.

I may have to have him start reviewing stuff with the old guys before we race. I'm thinking this is going to be hard for the old guys to have a 13 year old refresh their memories.

Great thread. It's funny - I've been sitting on some pics and my experiences with this for a while. Kept meaning to write it up for the site but haven't gotten to it.

Material: I used a tinted lexan-like material called Makrolon that actually has a hard coating for better UV and scratch resistance. 2 years in, they still look great and feel safer than glass.

I used the old portlights as templates. The Makrolon has a protective film on it. To get the best adhesion, I also used the Sikaflex that requires a primer (209D). So, trimmed off a small frame that I then brushed with primer, primed it, and then applied the compatible Sikaflex caulk (295).

Later, I came back with some Sikaflex 291-White to seal the inside to have a clean finish.

Here are a couple pics...





This is a very easy, low cost project that is well worth it!
- Jeff

Great Job! I'll be working on mine soon. What do you think of using Lexan material?

Consider the fact that on some auto racing circuits, the racers prefer to use lexan instead of glass for windshields.
While I already have one scratch in one new Polycarbonate [lexan] window, done by impact with jaw of spin pole, all it is is a scratch.

looking at my old set of windows ... there were no scratches just 27 years of cleaning the outside surface with all the wrong chemicals. The insides were fine.