J/30 Class Association Forums J/30 Forum The Boat, Sails and Equipment PHRF Racers: Code 6 Mainsail or "Please pass me the roach"

OK those of you that have gone to A sails can you tell me what length of Sprit you use? or are you just using the standard 12.5 pole?
and did you move the spin hoist up? if so how far up?
I am vary leary to go mast head as that is allot of mast that is unsuported. and buying a new rig is not in the budget.

I used the 12.5 pole and regular hoist for the asym.

I did try a friends kite that fit the masthead hoist in very lite air. Used the 2nd main haylard or topping lift sheave and went out the exit on the front of the mast. It is definity too much load for the unsupported top section of the rig. The rig flexed a bit when I would reach up in 5 knots TWS. Looked cool thought. Rig would need some more support to make it work.

Ok this is what I need to know.
I was looking at going up 1.5 ft on the hoist so I will have to put in a new spin halyard.
and I am getting a purpose built sprit that will go out 4.5 ft in front of the fore stay.

what was your sail area?
And did PHRF penalise you?

Any one else have advice on this?
soon I will be starting a new thread on this.
I have heard that this is a common thought.

Here are a couple of thoughts from someone who's spent the last 2 years playing around and working with big A-syms after spending his entire sailing career in J/30's.

New Sheave: If the mast can support it then it's a good idea for a number of reasons which may not have occured to you yet.
1) The obvious bump in sail area that you get with the extra height.
2) This also allows for a larger shoulder to be built into your running asyms (used down to 155-150 AWA) which allows you to rotate the kite to windward and sail deeper.
3) Raising the head of the sail higher and getting the sail away from the forestay will be of great help when you gybe the A-Sail inside (pull the clew around the bow between the stem and the tack fitting of the kite). This is because you have less interference from the forestay and it gives the sail more space to clear and fill faster. J/105's have had problems with their setup forever because their kite is fouled up by the forestay and they wind up having to head up further in order to get it filled as they come out of gybes. Not fast! You avoid that by moving the sheave up the mast.

Sprit: Aluminum should work fine since the loads aren't too high on a J/30. Keep in mind however that if you decide to look into Code Zero's or something similar you'll need a bobstay which is taut at full extension to tension the pole and keep it from bending.

Tackline: Run to the end of the pole, usually through a block which is attached to the bale (another reason to make sure you have one) and a few fairleads running back to the cockpit. This allows you to ease the tack up to run deep as well as pull the sail out to the end of the pole.

The tackline can develop a lot of load so I would suggest (even though it's pricey) that you run it to a clutch which you bolt onto the side of the house on the starboard side. This allows you to deploy the tack on a starboard tack layline and run it to a primary winch for adjustments.

IMG_1496 by Daniel Goldman, on Flickr

Halyard: If you're considering experimenting with a Code Zero style sail that requires mucho halyard tension I would go with something not stretchy.

Sheets: One continuous sheet with a strop spliced in at the middle. This strop connects to the clew while the two tails run around the boat to your sheeting points.

Sail Choices: Since your wind doesn't get up above 25 out there much (I think) there are 3 A-Sails that I'd suggest for your inventory. The first thing I have to mention is the numbering scheme of A-Sails. They all have numbers but these numbers mean different things other than the size of the sail. For instance a 1A and 2A might have the same square meterage but they can be cut wildly different. A general rule of thumb for asyms is that even numbered sails are for sailing deep and odd numbered sails are for reaching while the size decreases as the numbers increase (ie: 2A is bigger than 4A). All that said, for a boat like the J/30 in the conditions you'll likely see I would recommend a 1A, 2A and 3A. The 1A for light air because you'll have to sail reachier angles for VMG anyways and a 2A won't do well. The 1A can run decently but over 10 or so you'll want to switch to the 2A which runs beautifully up until about 20 knots. Then you switch to the 3A (which also works reaching over 12) because you need the decreased size and the heavier material.

All of this is assuming unlimited resources and since that is almost never a reality some combination of a reaching asym and a running asym will serve you well.

If you have any further questions I can happily answer any of them.

This is great info

Is this your J30 you have done this on?
how big did you go?
length of sprit?
do you have any pics of the sprit install?
so far I am modeling on the J92
and I like the idea for the clutch.
I have a spot already on the cabin top but this is an idea i had overlooked.

keep it coming.

I will probably buy the all purpose kite this year then buy another one next year.

I am not a J/30 owner (lifelong crew) but I have spent the last 2 years working and talking with one of Norths kite designers on these things. That photo of the clutch was actually from a J/111 (our next project) but the concept still translates well.

As for the length of the sprit, I really can't tell you simply because I don't know how your local PHRF board treats these things. I'd suggest talking with J/Boats, your sailmaker and your PHRF board about pole length and sail area. Suffice to say the farther you can get it away from the boat the better. The J/92 is 5.5 feet long so anything up to that point is reasonable and I would look to find the happy medium between PHRF rating and sail area/projection out from the boat.

Unfortunatly I can't produce any photos of a sprit install but when you do put it in keep in mind that you want the tack point of the sprit as close to centerline as possible. There are about 3 ways of doing a sprit install and they generally all meet this criteria.

1) You could look into a permanent, bolted on, bowsprit which stays out there. This has the disadvantage of increasing your LOA (for marina fee purposes) as well as leaving a 4-5 foot battering ram sticking out of the boat all the time. It's also fairly expensive as it would have to be custom (I would go with Carbon Fiber) fabricated and installed but might be stronger and smarter than other options.

2) The deck mounted retractable sprits are also an option. Bear in mind that this might not be as structurally sound (in other words, I wouldnt't take it out in 30 knots) or as aesthetically pleasing as the other options. Selden makes some http://www.seldenmast.com/download.cfm?download=7837&webnode_id=3014&filename=595-261-E.pdf as does Forte http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|118|319697|103585|312078|855335&id=1017978 . I'm not a huge fan of either as, even though the retrofit is easy, they don't extend much and I simply don't trust their structural integrity. That said, the J/30 Slingshot went with one (hull 340 http://i.imgur.com/Uo4ve.jpg) and it seems to extend far enough so maybe he'll pop in here and give you some comments. I believe you can also have these things custom fabricated by a rigger. Either way, it can work you just need to make sure it's what you want and will work with your boat, sail plan and rating.


3) Retrofit a custom sprit into the hull of the boat which extends and retracts out of the hull itself. This is by far the most expensive and most permanent option and I would only take this route if you know that it will pay off in your racing. That said, if done right it can be of great benefit and there's an Express 37 on LIS which went with this route and has been cleaning up in doublehanded races. For your situation I would not reccomend this as it's cost prohibitive, requires you to be married to the idea of A-sails and would definitely affect resale value along with some other things.

So those are some options for a bowsprit. I would look into either 1 or 2 as they're probably the best for you but since they all have their disadvantages I would weigh the pros and cons of each before deciding.

Good choice on the AP kite. It should run and reach equally well and will serve to teach you and your crew how to rig, fly and sail with an Asym.

Keep the questions coming.

Option 1 & 3 would definitely disqualify that hull for any class one design races.

In option 1 the bowsprit could likely be removed for one design racing if it is simply bolted on. Would option 3 also make the boat illegal for class racing if they simply did not use it and went with standard class equipment?

Class rules state in the preface:
Notice to Owners and Sailmakers
It is impossible to foresee every conceivable innovation which may be thought of in the future and to mention every suggestion that has been ruled illegal in the past. When considering anything in connection with the boat or sails or equipment which is not within established practice in the J/30 Class or is not clearly covered by the plans or specifications, you must assume that it is illegal, and must obtain a ruling from the Chief Measurer before attempting it.

Go to the J/30 Class Rules and read section 1 and the subparagraphs there.

I can't see a permanent modification on the hull to accommodate a sprit meeting the OD rules. A bolt-on that could be removed for OD racing would.

Ok guys I am doing this with the full knowledge that when the boat is in this configuration she is not class.
But Vampire is not class right now any way. I have a Kevlar Main and Carry 3 spinnakers 4 head sails and on the odd race we Carry a spare main.
But should I decide to race class I do have all the stuff to switch her back in 5 minutes.
And yes the sprit will pop off. All that will be left is the hoop next to the Jib horns and the two hard points the pole clips to when extended. And there will be another Spin halyard further up the mast. But that is just for the A sail.
So when we get the west coast fleet together we can party.

But I am doing this to show people that my old J30 still has some great speed left in her. Working with some engineers and an Olympic sailor that is my local North sails loft owner we are looking at improving the boat and taking it to that next level.

Out here on the west coast we have allot of franken boats that have put sprits on and they eat the fleets.

My J30 goes up wind like a scalded cat and we beat everything in our class but when the wind goes aft we see the problem with the boat in our predominantly light air area. The boat can take allot of spinnaker and she is way under sailed for our area. A big A sail will fix this.

I have far too many second place trophies on my shelf. after 20 years of racing PHRF I have seen one over riding thing. The faster boat wins regardless of rating. Its this or I go buy a Flying Tiger F10. But Vampire is fun and has a great interior and the ruder does not snap off in 40kn of wind like the F10.

So I have ordered the sprit at 5' over J and the height for the new spin halyard is being modeled this week at my friends engineering firm.

next when we have hard dimensions comes the A sail.
if all goes well you will be reading about the conversion and how I cleaned up in the NW or how I wasted $3000 on a nice tent.