J/30 Class Association Forums J/30 Forum The Boat, Sails and Equipment PHRF Racers: Code 6 Mainsail or "Please pass me the roach"

I am just wondering if any primary PHRF racers out there have tried powering up in the main and what your experience with it has been. I am still new to my J/30 with BAGGED OD sails so my experience evaluating performance is limited.

Ignoring the recent Southern Straits race, we normally race in predominately light air in the PNW, or in my Squamish micro-climate, moderate to heavy air with flat water. My local Quantum sailmaker who, to his credit, is known for building very fast sails, is adamant that the J/30 has an underpowered main and would benefit significantly by moving to a Code 6 main with larger roach. Given that with enough weight on the rail, that big #1 can be carried right up over 20 kts apparent making the #2 basically useless I would tend to agree; when I tell most left coasters this J/30 habit, their jaws tend to drop as most boats don't hoist the #1 over 10-15. Perhaps a larger main and greater use of the #2 would be beneficial.

Since I don't have any opportunity to OD race, maximizing boat fun in PHRF (within a tiny budget) is the name of the game for me, so this idea intrigued me. as luck would have it, I came across a beat up old mylar J/29 FR sail with a 38' hoist and full batten pockets (I made my own battens out of 3/8" fibreglass rod; again, budget). $140 for the sail, $20 for clear ductape re-inforcing the leech and $80 for batten material and I had a Code 6 test sail for under $250. The roach on this main laps the backstay by about 6-8" (light air tacks can be slightly challenging) and I took a 3 second hit on the certificate (I now rate 136 with old sail credit, J+1 pole and 163 headsail).

Sunday was the first race with it and in challenging conditions. Depending on where we were on the race course, the wind varied between <5 kts to 15kts. We took first overall over two races and came from behind and beat the fleet handily both in line honours and corrected during the first race. We flew the #3 in the first race which was under powered when the wind shut down, yet we still maintain good boat speed. For the second race, we first hoisted the #2 and then changed to #1 when the wind was quiet. of course, we ran into ~15 kts true after the sail change and it became obvious that we were overpowered at that point (~1200 lbs on the rail). The boat was not as flat as it needed to be with lots of weather helm, but lowering the traveller and opening the leech still allowed us to keep up to the Ericson 33 who has over a foot more LWL, and my arms lasted the final 15 minutes. For a $250 sail, I am more than impressed with the performance gain over my bagged one design sails but comparing a bagged dacron to a shapely mylar is probably apples to oranges (Red Five and I will need to go heads up to see if there is any noticable performance differences )

Observations:
1. The wind ranges we all know and love for the headsails go out the window. I am thinking #1: 0-15 #2: 10-20 #3: 20+ apparent (more testing needed, but it is definitely more powerful and the #2 now seems to be my go-to sail). Carrying only a #2 might even pay-off with the rating credit but I am not one to make a boat slower for better rating optimization :P

2. The cut of this sail has the boom almost 90 degrees to the mast allowing for much greater room and safety in the cockpit. This, along with the extra roach seems to make the sail much more sensitive to trim changes (e.g. tiny mainsheet/backstay tension adjustments have a huge impact on the leech shape)

3. I am too cheap, but tapered battens are probably necessary. The draft is too far back with my current set-up.

4. Tacks in light air require more thought to get the battens through timely. Slack in the vang, release main sheet and tension on the back stay to make the leech as soft as possible gets it through. The main trimmer really needs to be on her game to get that mainsheet back in as quickly as possible once the leech clears and the driver needs to steer a little lower to keep the main powered up until she gets it back in.

5. Dowind performance seems to be a pretty big game. We pulled away from a Martin 242 downwind (albeit, maybe not sailed all that well). As other PNW racers can attest, those boats are as annoying as hell with their gift ratings and speedy down wind performance in moderate air. Making tracks on it made me giggle like a school girl.

Since I am saving my pennies for a new main next year, I am will need to decide if I smoke the roach or stay on the straight and narrow. I am interested to hear from more experienced J/30 sailors as to their thoughts on powering up the sail plan. I realize I may be peeing on some hallowed ground by questioning whether the OD sail dimensions are really the optimal sail for our boat.

Sorry for the long read, but what else are you going to do at work when you are not sailing!

Scott

I am not sure what you see is just because of roach. I have a feeling it was more due to a flatter sail shape which is much better for speed than a deep sail - particularly in flat water.

How much time do you spend tuning the rig? Getting the correct prebend in the mast may help move the draft forward with more halyard tension and cunningham.

Also the roach on my main also overlaps the backstay by about the same amount so not sure it really has more roach.

I think it can work but you better have a sailmaker that will invest a lot of time in getting it right. If you don't then I would stick with OD sail sizes since we all know they fit the rig once the rig is tuned and there is a lot of info on how to tune to the sails.

New sails are going to be much faster than what you have - period .

Scott,

Good idea. Something I have thought about for my next main. Local PHRF my dictate otherwise. Do you have any girth measurements on the sail? Next step is a high-tech rope backstay with a flicker.

The full battens are helping a bit too.

My upper girth measurement is 5.65 feet and mid-girth 8.83 feet (2691 mm). Mid-girth exceeds class rules by only a few inches . Compared to my old ODR sail, it is significantly fatter in the upper girth though.

David, it is very likely that most of the increased performance I saw was due to a flatter shape. I do know that with the main sail alone there is significantly more heel in the sail even when flattened than my old bagged sail. Maybe my butt power meter is lying to me. I still am interested though, what others think about adding more roach (i.e comparing new to new, same material).

I haven't spent a lot of time turning the rig to specs found here (step needs to move forward I know). My uppers and lowers are about 1400 and 1200 respectively measured by a Loos (the larger model). I am gun-shy about having an overtight rig and since that was the first time using the tension gauge I was hesitant to crank up to tighter 16-1800. The rig tune also depends a lot on sail cut so I am not bright enough to estimate the rig need for this new sail (rake, pre-bend etc.)

I appreciate the help! Keep it coming!

I am a huge believer in going with a Code 6 or Code 7 main for fractional rigs in PHRF....pays huge dividends up wind and down....only downside is that to properly fit it you typically need to mount a backstay flicker...although with a swept rig that is less of an issue then with an inline rig.

Your sailmaker (Dave) is bang on. I say go for it. Go with a Code 6 main and stay with a Code 5 headsail and your crew will also thank you. I seem to recall one of the Frac, rigged J/29's (Rhumbline ????) did the same idea and seemed to recall they were fairly happy with the results.

More power! If you do not OD and it does not wildly change your rating then why not?

To get the most out of the increased roach, if you do not have a fine tune then you should invest in one. It gives you absolute control over the upper 1/4 of the sail and with a bigger roach you will need finer control over leech tension.

Your sailmaker can help with the rig tune. Most important is to find the right amount of bend ( ratio of upper tension to lower tension - not overall tension ) for the sail they make - and they should be able to help you dial that in by how much luff curve they put into the sail. Once you get that right you can tighten or loosen for wind - just keep the same ratio.

Also you can get a bit more room on the backstay in light air by taking a strong bungy cord with hooks on the ends and running it from the top of one vertical cockpit stanchion (ones closes to tiller) inside the backstays and then connect to the other stanchion. This will pull it back a few inches as well as keep it out of your way when you tack.

Scott,

I have an archived email discussion between the previous owner of my boat and Dave Cross at Quantum regarding a large roach main in my file cabinet downstairs. In the end the previous owner stayed with OD specs and bought from North... though I seem to remember him saying that he regretted not "turbo-ing" the main later. If I remember correctly Dave also suggested a smaller headsail as part of the formula (maybe 155?) to ease the rating hit. I'll see if I can dig up his old recommendations. Dave certainly makes fast sails and tends to know what he's talking about so I'd think about it carefully.

The rating hit seems significant as I am now rated 142 with old sails credit and my 163 headsail, and this after a base rating adjustment this year (maybe that Viking 33 that I beat by 1 sec corrected last summer took offence and appealed). A two boat testing programme sounds like fun though. How about main sails only next time you're in town?

BTW Scott, Wednesday night racing starts on the 21st. Let me know if you are in town one of these weeks and I'll try and find a crew spot for you.

I took only a three second hit for the main. So with a code 5 main I would be 139 (base OD 145). My certificate also carries a six second hit for the 0.5 oz spinnaker I have; I didn't think it was larger than class so perhap I measured wrong! I'd definitely be interested in comparing certs. Funny thing is, I am happy carrying a lwoer rating so I am more likely to be accepted into the Van Isle 360 if it doesn't fold (max 135 rating, but they don't say no to close rated boats).

Mainsail only would yield good comparison. I think your OD main is newer than this mylar sail.

is the .5 around 34 X 21? I think that would be " ok standard"
6 sec is an overreactive penalty!

I just got my J/30 home this weekend and will be sending in for my BC Sailing certificate shortly_.I will let you know the numbers once I get them and we can do a cert. comparison_Cheers R.

Lakesailor, You in the Okanagan? Jason Rhodes told me he knew someone in the interior who just bought a J/30. That you?

Lakesailor ... nice blog ... good luck with 48. If you ever get down to Naples during the winter look us up.
v

That is me....Jason is a good friend....I was actually admiring your boat at RVYC a few weeks back when I was last down in the lower mainland. Hull # 48 will now be based out of Penticton_.Hope to have it floating in a few weeks. If you are ever in the area drop by!

Thanks_.will definitely look you up if I ever get down that way_.and please do the same if you ever find yourself in the Okanagan "Wine" region up here_..

roger, roger ... with two of my winter crew from Alaska that isn't impossible. one driving back this week. -- duh
some 5000 miles ... next month the other one drives back -- double duh.

And hey wine over ice ...
Just as good as Natural Ice ...

you can tell it's 76 and raining here in Naples today.

Wow, good to know. Congrats on your recent purchase. FYI, I'll be racing on Wednesday nights. If you're ever down on a wednesday feel free to drop by. We tend to leave the dock by 5:30.

Ok Scott. you know that I got a new main and the way we had it cut it does not come in any bigger but I'm just as fast as a 6. Tony has a 6 and we sail next to him all the time. I feel the same about the 163% as well. We run a 153% 3DL and we sail beside the guys with the big sails. so we get 6 seconds and we don't have to hold the boat down. we normally run 5 crew and do well. New sails trimmed well will always win over big sails that are worn out. We change our main and head sails every 4 years. I do it on a rotation so I only change one sail a year.
next is my new Asymmetrical spin.

Did you ever talk to Rodney at Evolution? he made my new main this year for $3500 out of full Kevlar and two reefs for my night racing and the draft stripes glow for night racing.
as well the new batten technology is amazing. it forces the draft forward in the way they are radically tapered in the first foot.

So yes go for the big roach but keep it a 5.

No I haven't talked to Rodney yet because I kept asking you who your contact was with Evolution and no response, Don!!

This good info. Filed for use in the near future.

Rodney Keenan

Evolution Sails New Zealand

41a Stanhope Road

Ellerslie, Auckland 1072

Office +64 9 579 6972

Cell +64 21 486 135

Sorry Man I have been up to my Spin Pole in stuff. but yes I do recal you asked for this awhile back.
Maybe I was trying to hold you down so you dont beat me this year..

What races you thinking of doing this year Scott?
Considering VanIsle.
I am talking to the Johnstons about a sprit for the boat from a J92. What do you think that will do to my rating?

I know you are considering Van isle, and I am considering joining you as crew. Any idea on the costs yet?

It depends on how long the sprit is. If the Asym is no larger in area than the symmetrical I don't think it impacts your rating. You are allowed a certain length of sprit without penalty; I can't remember how long though. If I recall, the downside is that PHRF does not allow you to carry both a sym and asym.

Do you think an Asym will be an advantage for the 360? My first reaction is that it wouldn't be, but I haven't sailed down the outside so I would be talking out my ass.

The costs are looking like $2000 for a full share per person and 2 weeks of racing. You could do just a week if that works into your plan better and the costs reduce accordingly.
This covers food lodging and fees. Its does not cover an insatiable thirst for Beer!

The penalty is -3 seconds for every foot over J. and +6 seconds If I say I will only use one or the other. But If I want to use ether in a race I don't get the 6 sec bonus. Can't imagine ever using both. Once you have used a sprit you will never go back.
Rodney Johnstone Is advising us on the most competitive measurements to use. But suffice to say that the Asym will fallow my motto of Go Big or stay home. now if you see me out looking for a new mast next fall you know what happened.

And Yes the Asym will be a huge advantage for all distance races.
I have done a fair bit of distance racing and I am sick and tired of getting to the up wind mark or island to round Half an hour ahead of boats that owe me a ton of time only to have them run over me down wind and beat me by 8h over 35 miles! look at our results in Swiftsure this year. Any one have A drill so I can put some holes in Zulu and that flying tiger! So we always win the race to weather but then come around the mark and get slaughtered with our undersize kite made for the heavy air of the eastern seaboard. Reaching and broad running the Asym is the only way to go. I ask you if there is any respectable builder still using a Symmetrical spin? And if they are ask why? Are they trying to follow an archaic class rule?
Now for Beer can racing the Symmetrical is the proper thing as you're trying to run deep. But in point to point racing you're just heading to the next puff and trying to get around that next island and you can always find some wind that will bend your way.
Except at Swiftsure.

And I have sailed the Van Isle before. Be It on Oriole so that was a bit different doing 18 knots with a spinnaker the size of a baseball field. But yes the A sail is the only way to go.

Well the Beneteau First series are still using syms and doing quite well. The First 40 took 2nd and 3rd corrected in Sydney-Hobart

While I am not arguing that asyms aren't great, I think getting run over down wind is a bit more of a function of our tubby hull that is better going upwind than down than the asym. The flying tiger is a planing hull so of course it is going to walk past us downwind. An olson 30 and Hobie 33 are also going to walk right past us like we are standing still with the symmetrical kites as well.

While it is undersized in the light stuff, our boats are heavy air queens so I don't feel I want a bigger kite when the wind gets up. Try as we might, without honkin waves this hull doesn't want to break free and a bigger kite just makes me think that hole in the water will get deeper and put a lot of stress on the rigging for little speed gain. This may be different for the asym though because of it's more efficient shape.

I am looking forward to seeing the final product though!! It will definitely be cool!

My 2 cents on the asym/sym advantages.

Many of the newer faster hull designs dont see app wind angles beyond 130 degrees in all wind conditions. If you look at our polars our app wind angel at 12 knots is 150ish and back to 170 degrees at 16 knots true. Thus I beleive a sym works well for the boat, a all asym polar curve for the boat will not be as verstile.

I tried a "modified" melges 24 kite with the same idea to go all asyms and I did not like it. I dont beleive the boat has the boatspeed to make asyms a verstile sail. I do think there is a place for an asym reaching in distance race, but I dont think you are going to see a huge speed increase.

I got a new sym 2S Airx .5 (600) for last season and love it. I was very competitive in light and medium air. Under 12 knots true I was faster than t-tens I sailed against. Over 12 they would start slowly moving on me (which they should).

The Friction Loss Pac Cup recap is a great analysis of what sails they liked while racing to Hawaii in this forum as well.

^ Good thoughts.

One of my crew has an old San Juan 24 modified to carry an Asym and apparently it was a huge improvement, and those hulls are as IOR as they get. He also put a deeper keel on it though, so maybe that is the magic combo.

I have always thought that an increase to the J/30 ballast/displacement ratio would pay huge dividends or at least a deeper keel (maybe 6 foot?) Don can you stick a deeper, higher aspect keel on when you make the change and let us know how it goes?

Friction Loss Pac Cup recap - dont know how I missed this previously - great rundown on taking our boat offshore!

John - how exactly did you modify the Melges 24 kite? I've read about using this kite as-is on the 30 in these forums. My sailmaker in Charleston even recommended trying one as-is to see what I think about it (flying it off the pole with the pole all the way down). He sailed the J/30 for many years and says I'd have no trouble with the rig.

Our Atlanta/Lake boat is a Melges so I have a couple older chutes laying around I plan to try. I'm a bit concerned that I'll quickly blow the thing in a decent puff...the M24 of course "gives" a lot more when the pressure comes on and I would expect lighter overall chute construction.

We rarely buoy-race the J (all point-to-point) so I think we are perfect A-sail candidates...no need for versatility, frequent need to be fast on a reach. If you compare the two chutes we are only talking about ~30 ft/sq more area, but would expect more shape efficiency.

I suppose if I got rid of the extra size, I wouldn't even have to tell the measurer.

-dan

I have an asym as well as a symetrical (class kite). We consider it essential to have the "a" sail for PHRF racing. Last season we won a couple of races strictly because of the "a" kite. This year, I don't think we had it out of the bag.

I don't remember what "code" it is. It's sized for reaching in 10-15k true wind. we fly it from the pole with the pole down to the pulpit. It has a narrow range but when you are in that range, 65-100 degrees, in moderate to heavier air it is faster than either the #1 or the class kite

Dan,

Correction, I actually modified how I fix the pole on the deck and not the actual kite. The M24 kite has a long luff and the pole on the deck helps the luff curve. I rivited a ring on the mast at deck level, and made a padded clamp bolted to the headstay tang/tack hole. I beleive the kite is a little smaller than class kites in area. FYI there are 2 M24 kites. I have the runner

Very easy to fly, but not necessarily faster. I agree with Russ a reacher like a 3A should have a good nich in distance races. May go 3S instaed b/c of PHRF hit. The Friction Loss guys seemed to like their 3S as well.

Amazing. I have been looking for this info and here it is coming out of the wood work. I knew that there had to be others trying this out. I am eating this up so keep it coming .
I want to hear all the pro and con statements so I can make informed decisions.

From My calculations we only need to get the boat moving one knot faster to make this pay. That sounds like allot but I have sailed displacement hulls with and without Asym and we get that performance improvement easy.

As well we are going with a proper sprit. Sticking it 4-5' in front of the bow. Not just on the pole. that will help fly it and allow for deeper angles. and yes your right that normally you only see 130 but that is also due to speed. if you go to deep you slow down. And Jybe's will no longer be free. they will be slower and cost time so that has been considered.
for the point to point racing this has got to be considered.

Also we are looking at moving the hoist up to increase sail area. but I do not want to go to the top of an unsupported mast. next I will be looking for a mast! The J92 went up only 1.5' and my question to J/Boats was that the safe call.
I have been crazy in the past an caught with my pants down and all the laundry up. granted we hit an all time record for the boat at 14kn but that is something I dont want to repeat. Tony Lost his mast on Radiant Heat in that race and It was only dumb luck that i did not as well. so I do want to keep the rig safe and not go crazy oversize here.

Any way keep it coming good and bad. I want to hear from any one that has info on this.

Scott I work for the government not embezzling the government!
no keel modifications. at least not yet. The mad scientist lab has only one project a year.. your going to get me labeled an X-J30 and then my rating will be 99! Then I will go Buy my circumnavigation boat! a J30 with roller furling.

OK those of you that have gone to A sails can you tell me what length of Sprit you use? or are you just using the standard 12.5 pole?
and did you move the spin hoist up? if so how far up?
I am vary leary to go mast head as that is allot of mast that is unsuported. and buying a new rig is not in the budget.

I used the 12.5 pole and regular hoist for the asym.

I did try a friends kite that fit the masthead hoist in very lite air. Used the 2nd main haylard or topping lift sheave and went out the exit on the front of the mast. It is definity too much load for the unsupported top section of the rig. The rig flexed a bit when I would reach up in 5 knots TWS. Looked cool thought. Rig would need some more support to make it work.

Ok this is what I need to know.
I was looking at going up 1.5 ft on the hoist so I will have to put in a new spin halyard.
and I am getting a purpose built sprit that will go out 4.5 ft in front of the fore stay.

what was your sail area?
And did PHRF penalise you?

Any one else have advice on this?
soon I will be starting a new thread on this.
I have heard that this is a common thought.

Here are a couple of thoughts from someone who's spent the last 2 years playing around and working with big A-syms after spending his entire sailing career in J/30's.

New Sheave: If the mast can support it then it's a good idea for a number of reasons which may not have occured to you yet.
1) The obvious bump in sail area that you get with the extra height.
2) This also allows for a larger shoulder to be built into your running asyms (used down to 155-150 AWA) which allows you to rotate the kite to windward and sail deeper.
3) Raising the head of the sail higher and getting the sail away from the forestay will be of great help when you gybe the A-Sail inside (pull the clew around the bow between the stem and the tack fitting of the kite). This is because you have less interference from the forestay and it gives the sail more space to clear and fill faster. J/105's have had problems with their setup forever because their kite is fouled up by the forestay and they wind up having to head up further in order to get it filled as they come out of gybes. Not fast! You avoid that by moving the sheave up the mast.

Sprit: Aluminum should work fine since the loads aren't too high on a J/30. Keep in mind however that if you decide to look into Code Zero's or something similar you'll need a bobstay which is taut at full extension to tension the pole and keep it from bending.

Tackline: Run to the end of the pole, usually through a block which is attached to the bale (another reason to make sure you have one) and a few fairleads running back to the cockpit. This allows you to ease the tack up to run deep as well as pull the sail out to the end of the pole.

The tackline can develop a lot of load so I would suggest (even though it's pricey) that you run it to a clutch which you bolt onto the side of the house on the starboard side. This allows you to deploy the tack on a starboard tack layline and run it to a primary winch for adjustments.

IMG_1496 by Daniel Goldman, on Flickr

Halyard: If you're considering experimenting with a Code Zero style sail that requires mucho halyard tension I would go with something not stretchy.

Sheets: One continuous sheet with a strop spliced in at the middle. This strop connects to the clew while the two tails run around the boat to your sheeting points.

Sail Choices: Since your wind doesn't get up above 25 out there much (I think) there are 3 A-Sails that I'd suggest for your inventory. The first thing I have to mention is the numbering scheme of A-Sails. They all have numbers but these numbers mean different things other than the size of the sail. For instance a 1A and 2A might have the same square meterage but they can be cut wildly different. A general rule of thumb for asyms is that even numbered sails are for sailing deep and odd numbered sails are for reaching while the size decreases as the numbers increase (ie: 2A is bigger than 4A). All that said, for a boat like the J/30 in the conditions you'll likely see I would recommend a 1A, 2A and 3A. The 1A for light air because you'll have to sail reachier angles for VMG anyways and a 2A won't do well. The 1A can run decently but over 10 or so you'll want to switch to the 2A which runs beautifully up until about 20 knots. Then you switch to the 3A (which also works reaching over 12) because you need the decreased size and the heavier material.

All of this is assuming unlimited resources and since that is almost never a reality some combination of a reaching asym and a running asym will serve you well.

If you have any further questions I can happily answer any of them.

This is great info

Is this your J30 you have done this on?
how big did you go?
length of sprit?
do you have any pics of the sprit install?
so far I am modeling on the J92
and I like the idea for the clutch.
I have a spot already on the cabin top but this is an idea i had overlooked.

keep it coming.

I will probably buy the all purpose kite this year then buy another one next year.

I am not a J/30 owner (lifelong crew) but I have spent the last 2 years working and talking with one of Norths kite designers on these things. That photo of the clutch was actually from a J/111 (our next project) but the concept still translates well.

As for the length of the sprit, I really can't tell you simply because I don't know how your local PHRF board treats these things. I'd suggest talking with J/Boats, your sailmaker and your PHRF board about pole length and sail area. Suffice to say the farther you can get it away from the boat the better. The J/92 is 5.5 feet long so anything up to that point is reasonable and I would look to find the happy medium between PHRF rating and sail area/projection out from the boat.

Unfortunatly I can't produce any photos of a sprit install but when you do put it in keep in mind that you want the tack point of the sprit as close to centerline as possible. There are about 3 ways of doing a sprit install and they generally all meet this criteria.

1) You could look into a permanent, bolted on, bowsprit which stays out there. This has the disadvantage of increasing your LOA (for marina fee purposes) as well as leaving a 4-5 foot battering ram sticking out of the boat all the time. It's also fairly expensive as it would have to be custom (I would go with Carbon Fiber) fabricated and installed but might be stronger and smarter than other options.

2) The deck mounted retractable sprits are also an option. Bear in mind that this might not be as structurally sound (in other words, I wouldnt't take it out in 30 knots) or as aesthetically pleasing as the other options. Selden makes some http://www.seldenmast.com/download.cfm?download=7837&webnode_id=3014&filename=595-261-E.pdf as does Forte http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|118|319697|103585|312078|855335&id=1017978 . I'm not a huge fan of either as, even though the retrofit is easy, they don't extend much and I simply don't trust their structural integrity. That said, the J/30 Slingshot went with one (hull 340 http://i.imgur.com/Uo4ve.jpg) and it seems to extend far enough so maybe he'll pop in here and give you some comments. I believe you can also have these things custom fabricated by a rigger. Either way, it can work you just need to make sure it's what you want and will work with your boat, sail plan and rating.


3) Retrofit a custom sprit into the hull of the boat which extends and retracts out of the hull itself. This is by far the most expensive and most permanent option and I would only take this route if you know that it will pay off in your racing. That said, if done right it can be of great benefit and there's an Express 37 on LIS which went with this route and has been cleaning up in doublehanded races. For your situation I would not reccomend this as it's cost prohibitive, requires you to be married to the idea of A-sails and would definitely affect resale value along with some other things.

So those are some options for a bowsprit. I would look into either 1 or 2 as they're probably the best for you but since they all have their disadvantages I would weigh the pros and cons of each before deciding.

Good choice on the AP kite. It should run and reach equally well and will serve to teach you and your crew how to rig, fly and sail with an Asym.

Keep the questions coming.

Option 1 & 3 would definitely disqualify that hull for any class one design races.

In option 1 the bowsprit could likely be removed for one design racing if it is simply bolted on. Would option 3 also make the boat illegal for class racing if they simply did not use it and went with standard class equipment?

Class rules state in the preface:
Notice to Owners and Sailmakers
It is impossible to foresee every conceivable innovation which may be thought of in the future and to mention every suggestion that has been ruled illegal in the past. When considering anything in connection with the boat or sails or equipment which is not within established practice in the J/30 Class or is not clearly covered by the plans or specifications, you must assume that it is illegal, and must obtain a ruling from the Chief Measurer before attempting it.

Go to the J/30 Class Rules and read section 1 and the subparagraphs there.

I can't see a permanent modification on the hull to accommodate a sprit meeting the OD rules. A bolt-on that could be removed for OD racing would.

Ok guys I am doing this with the full knowledge that when the boat is in this configuration she is not class.
But Vampire is not class right now any way. I have a Kevlar Main and Carry 3 spinnakers 4 head sails and on the odd race we Carry a spare main.
But should I decide to race class I do have all the stuff to switch her back in 5 minutes.
And yes the sprit will pop off. All that will be left is the hoop next to the Jib horns and the two hard points the pole clips to when extended. And there will be another Spin halyard further up the mast. But that is just for the A sail.
So when we get the west coast fleet together we can party.

But I am doing this to show people that my old J30 still has some great speed left in her. Working with some engineers and an Olympic sailor that is my local North sails loft owner we are looking at improving the boat and taking it to that next level.

Out here on the west coast we have allot of franken boats that have put sprits on and they eat the fleets.

My J30 goes up wind like a scalded cat and we beat everything in our class but when the wind goes aft we see the problem with the boat in our predominantly light air area. The boat can take allot of spinnaker and she is way under sailed for our area. A big A sail will fix this.

I have far too many second place trophies on my shelf. after 20 years of racing PHRF I have seen one over riding thing. The faster boat wins regardless of rating. Its this or I go buy a Flying Tiger F10. But Vampire is fun and has a great interior and the ruder does not snap off in 40kn of wind like the F10.

So I have ordered the sprit at 5' over J and the height for the new spin halyard is being modeled this week at my friends engineering firm.

next when we have hard dimensions comes the A sail.
if all goes well you will be reading about the conversion and how I cleaned up in the NW or how I wasted $3000 on a nice tent.

Bill, I totally agree on the class legality thing.


You didn't want one of those plastic-y made in china tigers anyways

Glad to hear that you've taken the plunge and I'm looking forward to hearing how it turns out.

I will post what we are up to and how it goes.
The first big race for this configuration will be Patos Island race in March. a 76 mile race against Radiant Heat. Me and Tony know where are boats are against each other and we have done this race a few times. The main difference this year will be the change in sail.

For all of you hard liners out there that are curious what caused me actually getting off my butt and doing this is.

Well we have a 580 mile race here called the Van Isle 360. you circumnavigate Vancouver island through some of the most amazing waters and challenges to navigation the world has to offer. its just shy of doing a Transpac.
to enter this race you have to have a rating of 135. Well they would not let me in the race when I told them I would just take the hit and race at 135 to my normal 144. So I will get something for my pain. I will bring the boat up to 133 with the new Asymmetrical sail.

Now if you have any idea of the loads I will experience I would appreciate it.

my engineer winced when i told him i routinely fly spinnakers up to 30kn of breeze and I asked him would the sprit take that.

he looked at the bow of the boat and back at me and wanted to know why I would do that?
For the speed. we have some big wind races here in the spring and fall and they are historically big sleigh rides home.

the blocks and rope clutches I am specking will have safe working load of 700lbs.

I wonder what the safe working load of the deck is?

I did come across this setup,...it looked promising

They wouldn't let you in, even if you agreed to sail to a 135 rating? As far as I recall, the 360 never has a surplus of boats wanting to sail it. A 163% and a large 0.5 oz spinnaker would put you right at 135.

The hoop on that pic is very close to the design we are going with. but we will be able to retract the sprit if we want.
don't want to poke anyone with my sprit.

could be called a dirty old man.

but as for the rating. No they wanted to know that my rating was that fast. And they wanted to see a certificate that said 135 or less.
And why do the 163 when I sail as fast as the 163 with a 153 3DL and I get a rating boost for it. and my main is just 1" under the minimum for a class 5 so I get that benefit as well but with a brand new mainsail this thing flys.

When I let Tony play with it he likes it.
No the real area these boats need help with is down wind and with the 6 second bonus for going with a sprit and then the -3 penalty for every foot past 1 foot over J I should be at 133 when I am done with my giant circus tent.

check out the rules at.
PHRF BC

By rights Zulu and Mai Tai should only provide one view.....their disappearing transoms. In 2005 Limelight went to a mast head symmetrical chute in preparation for the VanIsle 360, they did this so that they would make the rating break. Did this work for them? we'll never know as they went hard aground on their trip to Nanaimo. The only reason I would go with an "A" sail is the relative ease of handling. Gybing a symmetrical chute in big seas and winds off the west coast at night can be challenging. Have you been accepted for V.I. yet or is it too early. If your "in", you'll have a blast.

Actualy it was the 2003 Vanisle that Pete crashed her on the rock. And in his defense it was really not his fault as he was not at the helm when they hit. I was there as crew on Oriole. They were very unhappy when they arrived in Nanimo.

Lime Light was one of the fastest boats in the area and Pete won a lot of races with her. But I have not had a chance pace Lime Light with the big spin to see the true effect.

But as for Vampire and the sprit things are on hold as my engineer and sail maker are trying to convince me to put an extra set of spreaders on the mast and go to a masthead A sail. The calculation is that if I do not go up to the tip then the sail will be a one angle wonder and the boat will not have the full range of angles I would need.
As well we suspect that this would leave the boat with a rating around 100-110
Seems only fare as the J92s rates 95 out here and that is basically what I would be. Only a 1000lb more.

So now I am waiting to see what phrf NW and BC have to say about the measurements.

And then for the Vanisle Tony and I have secured positions on a C&C110 with a big A sail for the race. So more to come on this. But for the future let's try and get 5 of us in this race in 2 years.
This would mean we have to do the long course in swiftsure so get ready for a big ride this year.

I don't think I could ever get a crew to commit to the Swiftsure Bank on a J/30. That is just punishment!

100-110? Do you really think you can sail to that? I still think our hull shape is the big limiting factor here. I just can't see the J/30 hull breaking free of it's bow wave without some really big waves. In that rating territory you are competing with boats with either a lot more waterline, or they get up and dance on the table with the slightest puff (O30s).

What about just swapping in a J/29 MH rig? Or finding another MH rig of similar dimensions? Then you can save your J/30 rig to swap in for OD events when we get them going

Ok not to the bank we only need to go to flatery. but almost the same distance.
And I only do this when wind and tide favor the big run.
like last year for Patos we did the short race because I did not want to drive up wind against 4 kn of current. crazy.

and yes I have looked into the J29 mast. all options are on the table.
I seem to be stalling with the project as PHRF contemplates my future rating. they hate people like me who turbo a boat.
and they drag there feet and realy penalize people for doing this.

So for now I march on.
As for 110 that is too fast for me to compeat at.

when the wind is over 12kn I have no problem sailing at a rating of 120. under 6 kn I need that rating of 144. Like you said she has a big butt. but she is fast. In 15kn on a reach you should easly jump up and past hull speed. we have had Vampire up to 14kn. that was off the wind with no kite. and up wind we had 9kn in 35kn of wind. just slightly footing off. we were leaping out of the waves. I am a bit hard on the boat but love the speed. I should also say that we riped a stantion out of the deck when a spin line went slack for a second and lasoed the stantion and yanked it stright sidways and left a 6inch hole in the deck. so maybe i should have throtteled back.