J/30 Class Association Forums J/30 Forum The Boat, Sails and Equipment Ignition switch replacement?

Ignition replacement?

Was wondering if anyone has replaced the keyed ignition switch and if so if you have a good source on where to obtain a replacement keyed ignition part.

Many thanks in advance.

The "B" type panel (has a Tach) uses switch Yanmar #121575-91250 and the "A" type panel (no tach) uses Yanmar #124070-91250. Try any of the Yanmar sources listed on the J/30 Equipment Suppliers Page.

Thanks for that information. My ignition was removed from the panel and moved underneath the starboard lazerette at some point in the past so I may have to pull the old switch and see what one it is. I do have a tach on my panel though_.

Try Gallery Marine-206-547-2477 in Seattle.

I have the ignition under the lazerette. I would guess that any keyed ignition, marine or not, would work. It is just a simple circuit.

That is a good point...I will have to pull it and see what I can find for a replacement locally. Hello Lordco....

One thing to add - my switch was "kind of" working - I put a saved search for the part number on ebay and after waiting a few weeks a new one popped up for less than it cost to ship it.

"kind of working" describes my current situation as well_..did the replacement solve the problem ?

Yes, it did - the problem was that you would turn it on and it may or may not engage, or sometimes if you toggled it a few times it would engage - but it was often very hard to turn. Opened and cleaned it a few times which prolonged its live but finally just fixed it.

Here is my new fun control panel problem - if the panel takes a big splash of salt water, the buzzer will start going off and stay that way for 15 min or so till it drys off, the bigger teh splash, the louder it gets!

Somebody explain that one...

Most recent update....I ended up finding a "Heavy Duty Marine Ignition Switch" from Cole Hersee Company. Part # M-550 Can be found on sites like Amazon for $ 24.95. It has a brass case and thus far seems to be a suitable replacement for my old Yanmar one. It is rated as at 12 VDC
Ignition ............ 10 amps
Start .................. 5 amps



I will post a follow up review in a few weeks....

I have a key and a button (under the starboard lazrette as well) to start my Yanmar QM. To start I must turn the key (like a car) then push a button to engage the starter. Does anyone else have this set-up as well?

On to the meat of the question. I am noticing a significant voltage drop when engaging the button. It was getting to the point where I could no longer reliably start the engine. On the advice of an experienced technician, I moderated this voltage drop by replacing the in-line fuse holder on the ignition panel and replacing the connector on the solenoid.

This now keeps my post voltage-drop voltage above the 10 volts needed to get the starter moving but I am wondering if this is typical. Anyone else experiencing this voltage drop on start-up? I am wondering if the push button switch is the culprit as the voltage drop seems to happen when I engage this switch. Though I guess it could be the switch or anything downstream from it.

Your battery might be shot. How old? Do you keep it on the charger all the time? It might be cooked.

I second that. Do you place the battery switch on "All" and notice a difference? Also check your return path cable from the engine block to the negative terminal on the battery. A poor connection here will also display a similar problem. You can use jumper cables to test the connection.

Best check on the battery is to get a hydrometer and measure specific gravity of each cell. If maintenance free type, consider taking the battery out and load testing at an auto service center. A weak cell will display the symptoms you are seeing.

The push button switch powers the starting solenoid that engages the drive motor and closes main contacts between the battery and starter motor windings. If the push button switch was shot, the solenoid would chatter or not engage at all. The heavy current to the starter does not flow through the push button. That is not your problem.

The batteries are brand new and were replaced only a couple of weeks ago. Yes putting the battery switch on "both" did help sometimes before the batteries were replaced. The technician made me aware that a bunch of the connections were compromised and I went about correcting the easy ones.

I have an intelligent charger that drops down to a maintenance charge once it finishes the charging cycle so I do leave them charging most of the time. Maybe I should try charging them on alternate weeks in the summer?

I'll check the negative terminals next (easy fix) and the main connections to the switch.

I can easily jump start the engine by shorting out the solenoid with a screwdriver (from the low current post not the heavy current post) and the voltage drop happens only when I push the button. Correct me if I'm wrong but to me this means the problem is somewhere between the button and the solenoid no? Maybe I need to check and replace the button-to-wire connections, run new wire from the button and/or test the button.

All this tinkering makes me wish I took shop class in high school. My supplementary fine arts and language classes are not helping me much here :-)

hmmm, maybe the Solenoid itself is buggered, but you said that changing the connection did fix the problem. Where are you measuring the voltage drop? At the battery terminals?

If i were you, I wouldn't put my batteries on the charger at all in the summer, or only once and a while if you aren't sailing regularly. Especially if they are new. If you are getting out on the boat, the half hour or hour you might run the engine will charge the batteries sufficiently to maintain.

Additionally, you should always start your engine with the batteries on "both" if you need to charge the house battery too. I don't believe our stock battery selectors are the anti-surge type so it is really hard on the alternator to move the switch when running.

I have since discovered that replacing my ignition switch has not resolved my starting issues, and the voltage drop you mention could be a possible reason why as I can often start from the dock the first time but it will not start a subsequent time a few hours later once on the water (unless manually jumped of course)

Did replacing both of the inline fuse holders resolve the issue for ? Did you simply replace with the same size fuses ?

I may have that problem as well.....

I am thinking the solenoid might be my problem_but after reading all of the information in this thread I now have a few other things to check first_..negative lead from the engine block to battery_.the batteries themselves (mine are not new and always on an intelligent charger) inline fuses not to mention check all connections as well. Apparently the last owners put a new starter in at least and the ignition is now replaced so at least two things I can cross off the list. Thanks for all of the suggestions_.

I am seeing the voltage drop on the voltmeter at the instrument panel at the back of the cockpit. My solenoid looks really shiny so I figured it is probably pretty new... but maybe it's a dud?

My engine starts reliably right now so I'm wondering if the voltage drop is "normal". Still I think I'll hit up my aircraft mechanic friend to check the button and the downstream wiring. There were definitely several factors adding to it to reduce the reliability of the whole system. Removing some of them to keep the voltage hitting the solenoid above 10 volts seems to be the answer. However, I'm just wondering if I should see any voltage drop at all.

I'm used to keeping my batteries on the charger because my old ones were pretty bad. I will try keeping the charger off for a couple of weeks to see how it goes. In general, I am using the engine only a couple of minutes at a time to motor in and out on Wednesday nights. Of course I just used it a bunch this last week cruising in the Gulf Islands.

Lakesailor... what you are describing sounds very similar to what I was experiencing. Check all the connections in the ignition system right down to the connection at the solenoid and see where that gets you.

The inline fuses are common problems - not the fuses but the contacts in the fuse socket. Three years back the one on Rhapsody had a real high resistance connection and burnt the socket. The marine environment is not kind to these critters. I cut the wire and used a butt splice with heat shrink for the replacement fuse socket. I believe Vee Jay had a similar problem and replaced the cartridge fuses with a blade type fuse socket.

1. if motor starts in 4 seconds with one battery you are great.
2. if it takes two batteries to start in four seconds ... that is a sign that something is wrong or about to get worse.
3. with batteries every time you flip a switch the voltage will drop ... depends on how much you are drawing how much the voltage will drop. I have yet to get the same voltage on the master fuse panel that is available at the battery ... do this test if you have a voltage readout on your gps ... see if it comes anywhere near the voltage you read at the battery.
4. on larger boats they often have a bypass pushbutton switch in parallel to the starter button to basically do what you are doing with a screwdriver. That is generally near the motor access so you can easily start the motor at the motor. The ignition still must be turned on before you start.
5. I am waiting for this winter for Bill to give me an analysis on Vee Jay 505's original starter ... that Hitachi starter took me though all the steps last winter and finally was resolved with a cheap chinese replacement starter via Ebay (new). Now one season old and doing fine. Probably not "marine" grade ... but cheap.
6. anything with an in line glass fuse is a weak link.
7. Analog voltage meters are near worthless on a boat.
8. Standard marine ignition switch works fine. no special Yanmar wizardry in that piece except that it mechanically fits into the hole better. and you get a real key with the non Yanmar switch.

Basically when the motor is "cold" , sitting in the berth with the batteries on charge (also have an intelligent charger) it will fire right up_..much as it did first time today.

Motor out, anchor for a 3-4 hours and turn the key and it is dead. Jump it from the screwdriver and it fires up right up. I had a quick look at the motor when I jumped it tonight_definitely the inline fuse connector looks old and in need of replacement. The blue cylinder it hooks up to before hitting the solenoid also looks like it needs new connectors as well. I checked the motor block ground and it also could be filed and cleaned up a bit.

When I replaced the ignition switch I noticed that the fuse holder on that end also was on the tired side. I have a fair bit of incline connectors and connections to replace not to mention I will also install new batteries as well. Hopefully that solves the problem and if not then I will go after the solenoid_..Appreciate everyone's input on this_.

A couple of quick questions_

Is having a large capacitor wired in between your solenoid and starter a common item (modification?)

And secondly has anyone had any good luck with a particular battery replacement recommendation?

Many Thanks_.

Battery Rec - I used to buy various "higher end" batteries but recently started buying the WalMart deep-cycle house brand at the advice of a friend.

I guess the idea is that you might be replacing them a bit more often, but they cost way less.

So far so good 1.5 years in...

-djm

All I can think of for the capacitor use is to stop a high voltage arc and prevent burning contacts when the starter button is released. From EE terms it minimizes the dI/dt (change in current over change in time). Kind of like the old condenser across the points in a distributor on gas engines before electronic ignition. The capacitor should do nothing to help or hurt starting performance.

I haven't seen a Yanmar with a capacitor there. It's not shown in any of the service manual prints.

I'm on my 3rd year with a Walmart Group 24 set of car batteries 650 cranking amps that were $70 each when I bought them. No problems.

Thanks for the responses, much appreciated. I pulled the inline fuse connector last night (it definitely looks in need of replacement) and noticed the big blue capacitor and thought hmmmmm__

On the battery front it sounds like using both of the same type of battery is common as opposed to using on starting battery and one deep cycle for acc.

On a lot of newer boats I've seen, they have gone to a smaller pure starting battery and a larger single house battery - with a battery isolator in place so that:

-both batteries charge when engine is running
-you never mess with your battery switch (unless you for some reason need to start with the house battery)
-your starter battery never gets discharged cause you fell asleep with the lights on

I've thought about switching to this method - problem I see is our nice molded-in battery trays which are not going to easily accommodate different sized batteries, leaving some compromises.

Cost on the isolator is not insignificant either.

The J/30 original installation uses a battery switch that does battery 1, battery 2 or both. I use a very complicated algorithm to determine which battery to use. If it is an odd day, I leave the battery switch on 1 after the engine is shut down. If it is an even day, I leave the battery switch on 2 after the engine is shut down. This evenly uses the batteries over their life. I start the engine on both batteries, leave it there while running to charge both, and periodically will start on just 1 battery to see how it is working.

So what works for me is two of the same type battery. Some do a battery with high cranking amps for starting, and a second deep cycle battery for the house loads. Depending how you plan on using your boat, this may be a more preferred alternative. When I've done overnight deliveries, I just start the engine and top off the batteries after 6 hours running the navigation lights - that's the biggest current draw. The instruments are negligible compared to the lighting.

There are aftermarket voltage regulator and charging circuits that negate the requirement to use the battery switch for battery selection and charging like the Blue Sea Systems Automatic Charging Relay.

Probably way more info than you were looking for

That was all good information.


I am going to clean all of my battery terminals and replace the batteries as a short term fix (hopefully that fixes the problem) and in the off season start some re-wiring projects. I'll keep posting my results too see what ultimately solved the problem.

I most recently discovered that leaving the batteries off the charger meant they could not start the motor even at the dock_thus the batteries might be cooked_..they are old and have always been plugged in so I suspect it is time for a change_.new batteries on the way_.although I will do a load test tonight first_.

I think an isolator will be an offseason proejct as well. Thanks for the reminder....

Yet another "quick" question_..tonight I removed the batteries and now have a question regarding the battery wiring_..

Hull #48 has a Rule three way battery switch (i.e. Battery 1 or Battery 2 or both settings)

From a wiring perspective positive on battery 1 switch leads to positive on battery 1. However positive on battery 2 switch leads to the Yanmar and the common 1+2 on the switch leads to the positive on battery 2. This seems in error as one would think the positive on the battery 2 switch would lead to the positive on Battery 2 and the common on the battery switch would lead to the Yanmar. Am I missing something?

The negative is basically negative on battery #1 connected to the negative on battery # 2 and then connected to the engine block ground so that part seems OK.

I am thinking that the battery switch #2 positive should be connected to the battery #2 positive and the battery switch common positive should be connected to the Yanmar. Am I missing something?

I couldn't find a RULE manual online however it seems Perko follows this pattern.

Many thanks!

P.S. Did I mention I hate wiring?

I think that's wrong. "1" to battery #1, "2" to battery #2, "Common" to alternator and DC distribution.

That is what I was thinking as well. Currently the common and DC distribution are grouped together only they are coming off battery switch #2 positive instead of the switch common (1+2) positive as I am thinking should be the case_.

THX !

No Question! 1 goes to 1 and 2 goes to 2. Both goes to starter or common connectio point. Ground goes to ground in all cases. Any other combination will probably make smoke and cost money.

That make sense_.I re-wired the switch and corrected this problem yesterday. The way it was in the past battery #1 was hooked up properly however batter #2 was hooked up to A+B and the starter was hooked up to the battery #2 position.

Apparently the purpose of the capacitor was to serve as an "alternator filter" to help prevent interference for an old MLX Loran the boat no longer has.

I took your advice and picked up a Wal-Mart Group 24 house brand (Energizer) starting battery. 1000 cca for $ 97. For the "house" battery I picked up a Lifeline deep cycle marine http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/marineflyer.php?id=1

I hope to get both installed today and see if my problems are now resolved. Also going to re-check my solenoid connections as well.

Another question_

Yesterday I got the new batteries installed_..I am not certain if my problem is yet resolved, however during my checks from yesterday sessions I noticed that only of the two batteries seems to be getting a charge from the alternator when the engine is going.

I am now trying to determine if anyone has an idea why that might be ? Basically the ground on the two batteries is linked together before being connected to the ground on the engine block. The positive on each battery is each connected to the appropriate terminal on the battery switch. And yet once the motor is started only battery #2 will show over 14 volts at the terminals whereas the first battery show the normal mid 13's range.

I am trying to figure out why this might be or is it common that the alternator only puts out enough current to only charge one battery and the second one to a lesser degree ?

unless you have an isolator, you will only charge the battery that the switch selects (1-2 or both). If you get different readings on both, you may have a poor connection to the lower battery. My old electrical repairman hates isolators (causes alternator problems) I had partial charging until I cut out the isolator and hooked the alternator up to the main power connection at the starter.

Unhook battery number one and just check the voltage on the connector when it is charging.

I think I figured out the problem_..to my surprise the battery switch seems to have an issue where the switch position for battery #1 seems to have an internal contact issue. You need to really wiggle the switch in position #1 to get the current through. Yesterday once I figured that out and wiggled the switch I was getting over 14 volts from the alternator to battery #1.

I have a new switch on order so hopefully that will be one more thing I can cross off the list. I did get manage to get the oil changed yesterday as well_..and re-wired the fuel tank gauge_..it is always fun crossing off items on the to-do list, although those items being added at the bottom always seem to come quicker__

Hmmm, fuel tank gauge... something I DON'T have. Guesswork is fun.

I will probably just put a manual one on the top of the tank.