J/30 Class Association Forums J/30 Forum The Boat, Sails and Equipment Rudder search

So, could one of the govenors give the basics of how the process of adding vendors could be accomplished? I really think this is an important issue for the class.

David
#397

Ahoy fellow J-files;
Today I sent the following to our governing board to act upon. Mayhaps we will get some relief in time. I won't stop chasing this injustice until we have resolution.

Gentlemen;
Please take a look at the J30 forum under "The Boat, Sails and Equipment" and "Rudder search". There, please find discussion that you need to be involved in. There is serious malcontent over the apparent extortion of TPI and the cost of replacement rudders for these fine old relics, one of which I co-own with my son.
TPI advertises their price for a new rudder at $863 on their "official" equipment supplier page, last updated Feb. 10,04, yet, recently I was quoted $2000 more and was clearly told that they are the only "new" source. Unless the new rudders come filled with gasoline (thereby making them easily worth the price!) I share others view that we need to find another resource for foils and perhaps an alternative to the terrible design we were delt to a more balanced blade.
I have done some looking and find that there are any number of glass fabricators who will build these rudders for a more competitive price as you may imagine. Fiberglass is no longer rocket science albeit the cost is rising with oil prices.
The ball is in your court I believe, however, if I am barking up the wrong tree, perhaps you will share a different direction with me and I will tack away to a proper course. Simcerely, John Ritger Blew J 235

We had a similar problem with our S2 7.9's. When I tried to purchase a new rudder from S2 (Tiara Yachts now) I was quoted $5000. My solution was to get a mold made and build my own, as the class did not require us to purchase from S2 which has the original molds. The S2 class decided to start weighting rudders at the nationals to establish an acceptable weight and prevent people from building a 'cheater' super light weight rudder.
Anyhow, I would have to say that $2500 or so is not unreasonable for a new rudder from the builder. It cost me about $600 in materials (not including mold construction) plus about 60 hours of labor to make a rudder (60 hrs x $20/hr = 1200 bucks.) I have sold 2 for 2K each and I figure I am letting them go cheap. My point here is be carefull of what materials and craftmanship go in a cheap rudder--they usually only break when it's blowing 20+!!. I know one S2 7.9 that had one built for $1000 and it broke in half.
My suggestion would be to get your class association to build and own the molds and then rent them to owners or hire some local reliable glass-man who knows the boat to build 5 or 10 as a batch (cheaper that way) to sell to class members.
PS still looking for a J30 of my own...
Frank

You are correct , it is labor intensive to lay one up however, the fact of raising the price $2000 OVER the advertised price (ok, the website was updated 2 years ago) is the point. True, not all boards are made the same however the J30 rudder has no post, no structure, nothing exotic, pretty much a 2X14 faired to a shape!
I think we could muster 5 orders today, probably 10 by next month when the word gets out. A fair price should be around a grand, you finish the shape w/class templates (avaiable here). My glass guy has been building foils for 50 years and most of that time in f'glass so he really knows what works (and balsa isn't one of them!) and what doesn't. If it weren't for class rules of single source production, I would have one by now!
Good hunting on finding one of these Ferarri's of the sea! JOHN

I'm an appointed Governor-at-Large and served as Class President 1996-2000. The J/30 Class has dealt with the problem of alternate sourcing of original equipment including masts and winches, when they became difficult or impossible to obtain. The rudder story is not new news to me, having been involved in the creation of the mold (at TPI to a templated rudder provided by a class member) of the previous $863 rudder. There are competing factors. As a manufacturer class, we have some desire to maintain a relationship with the builder/trademark holder. But nobody wants be held for ransom.

Speaking only for myself, I would leave it to those of you who are motivated—that is, looking for a new rudder and do not wish to pay $2,875. Do some research and present one or more alternative to the class officers and measurer. My requirements would be a rudder of similar construction that fit the templates and was within reasonable weight of the original, which I believe, is 88 lbs. Nice if it were stronger for the same weight and not subject to water infiltration. Best if such suppliers would stock one or be able to build and ship within a short period of time. It would not break my heart if it had something other than foam in the middle, but please (Please!) resist any temptation to create a balanced rudder with a different shape or point of attachment. I've been through that once and it was both contentious and expensive for all involved.

Now that I think about the design of the J30 rudder, i would agree that 2800 is pretty steep, unfair when there is esentially a monopoly on the construction. My S2 7.9 rudders are made of epoxy, corecell and biaxial s-glass with carbon fiber and stainless steel reinforcement. If a mold were available it would be easy to make a very strong rudder for the J30 for about a $1000. If I had a J30 I would probably have done it already (for PHRF racing only of course)
PS Any one out there want to trade a J30 for a Cal 31 with a really nice rudder?

OK everyone, research has paid off! I have had several long conversations with a principal of Idasailor, a manufacturer of rudders for sailboats. They have a design staff and engineers, do their own manufacturing and are versed in many types of construction. They are the builders of the carbon rudders for the Columbia 30 sportboat and many others.

We have agreed that they will build our rudders from glass to meet the class drawings and be in class spec. They will also offer to build them out of HDPE, an extremely strong mechanical plastic(read: will NOT absorb water!) that VC17 bottom adheres to tenaciously, again, to factory spec drawing and mid-80lbs. as our originals are, or mahogany or carbon fiber for a different cost.
Wait, this get's better...they can ship in about 2 weeks currently AND, for those cruisers and folks who don't want to keep suffering from bad design, a much more balanced (75% improvement)rudder -not class legal.
I have agreement that the costs will be as follows:
Factory spec HDPE $725;
optomized weather helm adjusted: $775; both carry a lifetime warranty,
Factory spec molded f'glass $925
Optomized and lightened(not class legal) $950
All plus shipping - UPS able.

For those prices why not get two, one for racing and one to cruise with! Or, you and a friend share the cost of a cruising rudder to share?

Keep in mind that I do not have blessings from fleet measurer etc. to use these folks - yet. Being sailors who appreciate our position and compassion about our boat, I feel that they will back us on this move and why wouldn't they? The rudders will be built to the specs for the original rudder, just not blessed by the holy committee.

Please ask for Joel when ordering, he is familiar with our need. 1-866-400-2204 (Idaho)

I would echo Bob Rutsch's comment to stay away from "optimizing" the rudder design. This would seem to open a pandora's box that would end with lots of boats in the marketplace that are no longer one design legal. Next would be a deeper keel, redesigned keel, etc, etc. Bear in mind that the OD legal boats hold their value in large part because of the strong OD class.

Related question-are we allowing alternate rig builders for boom and mast? Apparently there are only a few J-29/J-30 boom sections left, and that particular section is no longer being produced.

John, great work. Thanks for this.

I may be interested at prices like these. Did you discuss the possibility of a bulk buy? How many of us might be interested?

Your point is well taken on an "improved rudder" however, this boat is YOURS now and you can do as you wish for cruising. If someone races it later then they are responsible for the class adherance. I for one, am not satisfied with the design of this rudder however, I am not getting away from the original intent and design. If I choose, I will buy a second "cruising" design as they are a snap to change.

There is another supplier for the mast and boom as I understand it - remember, this boat is old and the focus is swinging quickly to the newer classes so while purity of the breed should be maintained, the breed is waning.

The builder is taking a risk that he will garner our business as a class as he has with others and feels that if he provides a quality rudder at a good price then he will recoup his tooling and design costs. I like his attitude and feel very comfortable with his ability.